Bard and Wanderer's Minuet use it

[Welsper59]

I do use it, but there is not one dungeon that you can't stand still for a measly 1.5 seconds (if that) to pop a skill, and move which is no different than it was before.

I think the initial point of that was that you said:

We did not lose a single iota of mobility.

Which is 100% not true lol. There's no real need for the mobility, as you said, but it doesn't mean you didn't lose it.

[Jadedsins]

Dungeons involve teamwork. Teamwork involves discussing how to best accomplish a goal. A team member telling another team member to stop when they are intentionally sabotaging their DPS, therefore hurting the team as a whole, is perfectly reasonable.

Yet again that matters little on how a person plays. They are doing team work in his or her own way. When you queue up, you don't have any group rights at all to argue with someone about how they want to play. If they feel they are doing a good enough job, what you feel does not matter. Now if the group feels the same way. Sure boot the person, that is your right.

If you want more powerful tools and more control over groups. Make your own. Set your rules. If you are using the queue system, You lose a lot of that freedom, and unless you want to pay for that persons monthly fee. You don't have a right to tell them any thing.

[Malevicton]

They are doing team work in his or her own way.

That's uhh... that's not teamwork.

[Jadedsins]

Y'know, I don't like the animations for fire spells anymore. I'm just gonna cast blizzard3 from now on. I know it's terrible, and that my team will never think it's okay for me to behave that way, but it's more fun to me. And neither you nor anyone else has the right to even argue with me about it. Because you chose ease of access, which means literally anything I do that's not explicitly covered by ToS is completely immune to criticism.

That would be fine also. I would not care as long as the content got done. I picked to use the system, so if a person wants to do that. Let them. It taking longer does not bother me as i knew what I was getting into when signing up.

As my husband loves to say. Common sense is not so common.

[Jadedsins]

That's uhh... that's not teamwork.

Oh really? each person playing to his own strengths can lead to team work. Just because they don't play how you want them to play does not mean they are not working with the group for a common goal.

So yes, it can still be consider team work.

[Adire]

snip.

That person paying a monthly fee doesn't give that person the right to sabotage a group of 3 other people who are also paying a monthly fee. If we don't like that we're being sabotaged, we have every right to argue against the sabotage.

Would you rather be given a chance to help the group or just be kicked outright?

And...I really don't think forming a group in PF that says "NO WM rebels allowed" every time we need to run a dungeon is a realistic solution. I think it's better to expect bards who don't sabotage the group, and deal with the ones who do as appropriate for the situation once in.

[Malevicton]

That would be fine also. I would not care as long as the content got done. I picked to use the system, so if a person wants to do that. Let them. It taking longer does not bother me as i knew what I was getting into when signing up.

As my husband loves to say. Common sense is not so common.

It wouldn't bother you, really? We're just not gonna see eye to eye on this. Where exactly do you draw the line? Is it okay to just afk at the beginning because you feel like chatting in your ls? At what point is the line between your commitment to the group, and your group's commitment to you drawn? Yes, you have to deal with what you get in df, but that doesn't mean that by using df you're entitled to make everyone else pick up for your own inadequacies. This type of thought is why japanese df is so much better than ours.

Oh really? each person playing to his own strengths can lead to team work. Just because they don't play how you want them to play does not mean they are not working with the group for a common goal.

So yes, it can still be consider team work.

But you ARENT playing to your strengths. You're intentionally avoiding your strengths. Teamwork is a really vague word, but this still does not qualify. You're forcing the group to adapt around your playstyle. That's the opposite of teamwork.

[Welsper59]

If it is not different than it was before, then it is in fact, 100% true.

That has nothing to do with it. If you can't move and shoot with WM, when you can without it (as it was before), you've lost mobility. It's... rather simple. Mind you, it doesn't mean anything substantial, but you did lose it. So no, it's not true lol. The subject/context is on the jobs general optional functionality, not a given fight.

[Jadedsins]

snip

Why not? As I said that ease of access of dungeons comes at a price. Also griefing the group means that they are not trying at all, they join the party to get it done. I would rather that bard enjoy the group, and have fun getting it done. Than him not having fun and force to play a style that he does not want. The extra time it takes means very little at the end, as long as he tries to beat the dungeon.

[Malevicton]

Why not? As I said that ease of access of dungeons comes at a price. Also griefing the group means that they are not trying at all, they join the party to get it done. I would rather that bard enjoy the group, and have fun getting it done. Than him not having fun and force to play a style that he does not want. The extra time it takes means very little at the end, as long as he tries to beat the dungeon.

"tries to beat the dungeon" is pretty vague. Does just autoattacking count?

And at what point is the brd enjoying himself not okay when it's costing 3 or 7 others their enjoyment? Not to mention that dps has a commitment to actually try to dps. If they are legitimately confused or not very skilled that's one thing, but just saying "No I feel like doing low damage" is not acceptable. You can't have healers or tanks perform similar acts. Just because you technically aren't going to kill the group in dungeons (btw you will actually get your group killed with that behavior in raids), doesn't mean it's okay to just push the burden onto someone else.

I'll reiterate my previous questions: Where do you draw the line? Where does your commitment to the group become more important than the group's commitment to you?

Saying it's always okay to do whatever you want regardless of how it affects those around you is practically the definition of selfish.