Bard and Wanderer's Minuet use it

[fanservice]

Someone got out the hedgecutters...

[Garlyle]

That is not saying much. This community has always abused classes they don't feel is up to par, or does not equal to what they want in groups. The whole community thing, and respect to each other has been lost long ago. We will play bard how we enjoy it, and if we get kicked out of groups. That is a small price to pay for what we find enjoyable.

Would you accept a summoner or scholar not using their pet because they "don't like managing it"?
A paladin not turning on shield oath when tanking because "I can hold aggro just fine"?
A black mage not using enochian because "I didn't sign up to manage a stack"?
Hell, would you accept another bard not using Wind Bite/Venomous Shot because "I'm not here to play a DoT class"?
etc etc

The price you're paying isn't just what you're paying - it's what you're making everyone else that you play with pay too, because you're choosing to sabotage your own capabilities, so they have to make up for yours.

[Malevicton]

power snip

First of all, saying that the community (which by the way is not one cohesive thing; you're a part of it as well, it has no consistent ideology or definition) has "always abused classes they don't feel [are] up to par" is a pretty loaded statement worth its own discussion. It's definitely not something you can just throw out there as being axiomatically true.

The second part... well you didn't really even have a point as far as I can tell. You just said that you'll continue playing in a way you know upsets the people around you, and they can just deal with it. You're not doing a good job of convincing me this isn't childish behavior. If you agree that you're being childish and just don't care then I guess we're at an impasse.

You're not going to convince me that it's okay to intentionally sabotage group content for no other reason than it being fun for you. There's a term for that: griefing.

[LazyC]

Would you accept a summoner or scholar not using their pet because they "don't like managing it"?
A paladin not turning on shield oath when tanking because "I can hold aggro just fine"?
etc etc

The price you're paying isn't just what you're paying - it's what you're making everyone else that you play with pay too, because you're choosing to sabotage your own capabilities, so they have to make up for yours.

not that i directly agree either way overall ( i do dislike WM but whatever)

but this comparison doesnt work, summoners deal with pets right from the start 1-60 (i think? do they? never played one), and if they dont like dealing with pets then they wouldn't bother leveling it all the way to 60.

Paladins obviously get shield oath far later then they probably should(no idea why SE did this) its early enough that you get very used to it and it doesnt change how the class plays by having it on, like WM does.

[Garlyle]

not that i directly agree either way overall ( i do dislike WM but whatever)

but this comparison doesnt work...

Whether or not it's new, whether or not it "changes the way the class plays", it's a fundamental core of your class now and that's a truth that - given Yoshida's responses in the live letter - is going to remain a truth. That puts it in the same setting as any other core aspect of any other class. If you choose deliberately to ignore it, you've chosen to hinder your own performance and force other people to work harder to make up for you.

Enochian and Blood of the Dragon are also gamechangers for their respective classes that are forcing them to manage entirely new subsystems and rotations but I doubt people would jump to support someone saying "but it just doesn't feel great so I'm not going to do it".

[LazyC]

snipsnip.

correct me if im wrong but as far as i can tell Enochain didnt change anything about the playstyle of blackmage at all, its an extension of the same system of spell casting that already existed is it not? new skills were added and rotations were change but thats normal entirely when new skills are added, every class probably had to change their rotations a little.

i dont know anything about dragoon because no one in my FC has actually leveled it except one and ive heard nothing in terms of complaints from him, so as far as im aware is didnt seem to change all that much, he still uses his rotations while occasionally going into that dragon mode..which still consists of using melee skills from whatever direction requires them

AGAIN correct me if im wrong but, what was added to BLM and DRG and pretty much every other class was merely extensions onto their already existing play style with possibly some rotation adjustments.

I dont agree with just not using WM just because, i use it even if i hate it, but bards have a legit complaint and i can only hope that SE just gives up and removes it entirely because the class went from smooth fluid gameplay to this clunky mess it is now

[Malevicton]

correct me if im wrong but as far as i can tell Enochain didnt change anything about the playstyle of blackmage at all

I'm correcting you. You are wrong.

[LazyC]

I'm correcting you. You are wrong.

are you not still casting spells in a specific order like always? cause thats what it seems like to me

[Aezelas]

Some bards have been parsing decent numbers with some effort since the last patch. The fault is not on SE, the fault is on players who choose to be lazy (or the players who expect to do substantial dps without having more complexity in their job)

You're completely missing the whole point.
As a WM hater, I don't care about the numbers. I just can't stand the gameplay change.
Those who care about dps are those rangers that actually don't mind how WM works, except for the little damage it adds over time.

[Underdog2204]

clunky

This is the best word to describe things as the are atm I think, the way a class plays is just as important as it's mechanics.

Atm it seems BRD's without WM have a nice flow to their ability use and mobility. As soon as it is turned on then it all of a suddenly becomes playing like a rock and turreting. The mechanics of it might be ok but that doesn't help the overall feel of it being like night a day.

Having these total opposite playstyles shoved onto a class and be something they have to adapt and switch to after 2 years is uneccessary.

Not that I am condoning refusing to use it because you don't like it, you should always try your best no matter the circumstances, but I understand peoples huge distaste for such an ability being forced onto them.

This is also ontop the whole "you are dps" and "actually no... you are support" ambiguity SE has thrown at them recently.

It's a whole combination of things that has been building up over the past 2 years for BRD's and now WM is just the icing on the cake imo. Feeling like you are getting the raw end of the deal all the time is bound to create some animosity.