Monster Defense Removal and Balancing

[Nero]

For example, our r45 boss the ogre, has 32k HP. And we're dealing around 200 dmg.
We should feel a lot more powerful, and not like we're only tickling the ogre.

Only Auto-attacking? Not using BR's, as in DefenseDown? No caster for Acc/Atk? Not using Weaponskills? Not using BR's for stacking Damageoutput?

[MariyaShidou]

I've been thinking about this for a long time now.

In all RPGs you begin by having ur attacks deal little damage, for like up to 100, and then in the end u deal 9999. But in this game, you deal constant 100 dmg, up until the damn ogre (except if you kill lv1 mobs).

I think bigger numbers give you a sense of accomplishment, and that could be easily done by reducing the defense on enemies and increasing their HP like the OP said. It wouldn't be easier, or harder - just exactly the same. For example, our r45 boss the ogre, has 32k HP. And we're dealing around 200 dmg.
We should feel a lot more powerful, and not like we're only tickling the ogre.

Well, not everyone want to do 146,523 dmg and have boss that has 678,375,263,399 hp, especially with all the damage pop up.

[SirEdeonX]

*sigh* It was an example, but I can give you details if you want.

For normal attacks, i deal about 70-80 as an archer.
With multishot+raging strike II+ferocity+hawk's eye, i deal about 200 with each arrow.
I actually dont remember how much bloodletter damages.

Anyway, I was just asking for bigger numbers. Like multiplying everything by 10, so you feel you're doing something in the fight.

[SirEdeonX]

Well, not everyone want to do 146,523 dmg and have boss that has 678,375,263,399 hp, especially with all the damage pop up.

I don't want that. lol I was thinking about more reasonable numbers.

[Nero]

*sigh* It was an example, but I can give you details if you want.

For normal attacks, i deal about 70-80 as an archer.
With multishot+raging strike II+ferocity+hawk's eye, i deal about 200 with each arrow.
I actually dont remember how much bloodletter damages.

Anyway, I was just asking for bigger numbers. Like multiplying everything by 10, so you feel you're doing something in the fight.

If you want bigger numbers and a x10 multiplier.. what about giving Ogre along with that like 350k HP?

Seriously.. Ogre can be killed easy in like 5 Minutes. Why you even want to make it faster?

[SirEdeonX]

If you want bigger numbers and a x10 multiplier.. what about giving Ogre along with that like 350k HP?

Seriously.. Ogre can be killed easy in like 5 Minutes. Why you even want to make it faster?

Okay, once again it wouldn't make it faster or harder or easier or longer. Can't you understand that? Okay, simple math:
If an Ogre has 35.000 HP and I deal 100 per attack, how many attacks does it take for me to kill it?

35.000/100 = 350

Now, if the Ogre has 350.000 HP and I deal 1000 per attack, how many is it now?

350.000/1000 = 35.000/100 = 3.500/10 = 350/1 = 350.

See? Same number of attacks -> same time to defeat -> same difficulty.

I don't want to make the difficulty change, I'm not even talking about that. I'm purely talking about the effect of relevance and accomplishment that a player has is bigger when they deal 2000 damage, then when they deal 20. Likewise, you feel that a mob is stronger, the stronger his HP is - and that makes you want to fight harder and is more fun.

Just think of it this way, would you like for the Ogre (for example) to only have 3.500 HP and you kept dealing 10 dmg? Isn't it a lot more menacing to have 35.000HP?

[Nero]

Okay, once again it wouldn't make it faster or harder or easier or longer. Can't you understand that? Okay, simple math:

If an Ogre has 35.000 HP and I deal 100 per attack, how many attacks does it take for me to kill it?

35.000/100 = 350

Has nothing to do with Math at all. Otherwise you would implement the Damageoutput of the whole Group, including BR's, Buff, DoT's etc etc.

Now, if the Ogre has 350.000 HP and I deal 1000 per attack, how many is it now?

Doesnt matter... still.

350.000/1000 = 35.000/100 = 3.500/10 = 350/1 = 350.

See? Same number of attacks -> same time to defeat -> same difficulty.

Exactly.. you pointed it out yourself. WHY even change the number? Do you get it now, or do i have to pull out mor sarcasm?

I don't want to make the difficulty change, I'm not even talking about that. I'm purely talking about the effect of relevance and accomplishment that a player has is bigger when they deal 2000 damage, then when they deal 20. Likewise, you feel that a mob is stronger, the stronger his HP is - and that makes you want to fight harder and is more fun.

Just think of it this way, would you like for the Ogre (for example) to only have 3.500 HP and you kept dealing 10 dmg? Isn't it a lot more menacing to have 35.000HP?

Its does not matter. Same percentage taken, same skill needed, same result. So it does not matter at all if i see "10" dmg or "10.000" damage. Its just a psychological effect some people may would like, but it doesnt make sense at all, to change it that way. I personally dont care if i do 10 or 10000000 Dmg if its ending in the same Result. Its just an graphical Indikator.. nothing more. Its like i would say:

"Hey SE.. make my Lance look more SHARP.. so i feel more usefull" .. Do you know what i mean? It does not matter at all.

And the OP actually wants to make it easier. See here:

Remove defense, Add negative stats for mobs weak to something, increase HP accordingly, classes magically become more balanced - if you don't believe it parse against level 1s.
Also note, leave defense for players.

[Tigercub]

Does defense hurt faster hitting classes like PGL more than slow hitting classes like MRD?
I'm just curious because this thread reminds me of THF's problems with defense in FFXI. It was not uncommon to see a reasonably well equipped THF to hit for 10 or even 0 on many mob types because of the fact it was a low damage but fast hitting class. Technically it had good DPS because it hit very rapidly, but in practice each hit was reduced so much that it never achieved the same output as other DD jobs. The fact that you got no TP return on a hit for 0 only exacerbated the problem.

I personally have no idea if this is the case with fast hitting classes in FFXIV, because the part of the game I'm up to is just mindlessly easy and I never bothered to check. So I'd love if someone gave me some insight about this.

[SirEdeonX]

Its does not matter. Same percentage taken, same skill needed, same result. So it does not matter at all if i see "10" dmg or "10.000" damage. Its just a psychological effect some people may would like, but it doesnt make sense at all, to change it that way. I personally dont care if i do 10 or 10000000 Dmg if its ending in the same Result. Its just an graphical Indikator.. nothing more.

I understand what you're saying, and that's what I've been saying from the beginning. From the point of view of the game, difficulty and such, it doesn't matter at all. It's just simple game progression. Higher mobs should have higher HP and you should deal higher damage.
I know for some players, it doesn't matter, but I know for sure that for some it does. I never played WoW, but while talking about this with my friend, he said that a lot of ppl modded the UI to change the damage to higher numbers, just so they could feel stronger, until the point that Blizzard did that to the game XD
For me, having played all FFs and all the RPGs I could grab, it seems a little weird to deal the same amount of damage throughout the game.

But it's just my opinion. I'm just stating what I think about the big/small numbers. I'm not actually discussing the "remove defense" from the OP, which I don't think they should, just adjust it so we kinda see our characters progressing, which is the point in a RPG / MMO.

Either way, stats are gonna change in 1.19, so we should all settle down and wait for the changes to come, so we can see.