I chose BRD for swift gameplay, if I wanted to cast I would have chosen a Mage.

[Raiker]

once again you use level 24 archer as your go to as if that disproves the video.

Okay, since we're talking about invalidated arguments, which I'm sure you will rebuttal with, "B-but ... your horns are silly!" at the rate you're going.

Let me go ahead an invalidate yours.
You're a 24 archer, you're level 60 is a paladin. You're riding off the coat tails of UBERHAXED with your debate.

You keep referencing a video with a bard shooting a level 50 striking dummy that has no defense and is not actually showing his parse on. You're simply agreeing with something that agrees with you; makes you feel good. I get that.

I would love to ask if you see where your fallacy is, but you won't see it that way.

The easy TL;DR part of this post, bards (level 60 bards, not 24 archers) are not happy with things. They're expressing their displeasure though a forum provided to them to do as such. You being a 'bully' for the sake of being one does not further push this issue into getting resolved. I've seen a thimble full of people say, "Bard is fine." I've seen an ocean full of people say it is not. There is a disparity here.

Not recognizing this does yourself a disservice when you, yourself, decide to finally push bard past 50, and realize, "hey, something is wrong." When or if that does in fact happen, you will have caused your own problem.

Edit: Just to be petty because I feel like reducing my self down a level; you got your video from this link: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._872_dps_i180/

About half way down the page it's discussed about how unrealistic your 'proof' is.

[Lewtskie]

Intell you've dealt with Musa before, it's best to just add him to your ignore list.

To someone like Musa the game is purely defined by winning and pulling big numbers, so to them Minuet is what we required and we now just need to be good little Jukeboxes and do what we're told, which is of course to just play songs and not die. How we feel about a situation is irrelevant to them.

As to these others, maybe they just want to ignore the fact that every class has certain aesthetics that draws folks in, and with Bard it's coming to a case of false advertising at this point.

I certainly took into Bard because how smooth their rotations were and how they can effortlessly dodge everything. It was coming off of playing SMN and I wanted something a little more free-form. Bard was simple and straightforward, which was a breathe of fresh air coming off the micro-managing madness on SMN. It was just fun to play. Has been since. That's why a lot of folks like it. But now a fundamental aesthetic that was always a part of the class is not diminished, pushed aside and not efficient.

I use Minuet and while I say it's far from useless, it certainly has drained a good portion of the fun from the Class. But to these folks who are saying it isn't an issue probably do so because they only play what gives the biggest numbers or is most effective for certain content. Fun is all in the winning, not in the playing.

[Virgaeus]

I am a level 60 Bard and i love WM! Come on you just have to learn how to use it (I even liked it when it was still with a Cast time )
Maybe Doing Neverreap over and over again would help you? (The final boss of that dungeon kinda makes you move XD)

[Gallus]

I am a level 60 Bard and i love WM! Come on you just have to learn how to use it (I even liked it when it was still with a Cast time )
Maybe Doing Neverreap over and over again would help you? (The final boss of that dungeon kinda makes you move XD)

Not to mention BRD aoe is extremely decent now. 30% damage boost is pretty damn high, and missing autos on large pulls is like........nothing. I dont know lol, I don't main BRD, but the few ones I know are pretty happy with the changes (they weren't very happy though before the hotfixes, but instant minuette + 10% minuette dmg boost really fixed the job apparently). I just like SCH too much, but if I was to main BRD, they look pretty appealing to me at the moment...and definitely very viable (in fact mandatory I'd say).

[Musashidon]

snip

the whole discussion is i want to run in shoot.

it's completely fine but when someone decides hey bards aren't fine.

well they are wrong their dps is fine, their core design (songs) are fine.

only players who want to run and shoot are affected and that is just a personal preference, it doesn't make or break the job.

As to these others, maybe they just want to ignore the fact that every class has certain aesthetics that draws folks in, and with Bard it's coming to a case of false advertising at this point.

i don't ignore it, but it doesn't make bards.

bards are still doing their job without mobility.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Look, I get that freedom of movement is an appealing thing for Bards and Machinists. . . Now let's look at content and how we generally handle it:

Garuda Ex: During tornado phase, more than 80% of the room is unsafe; ranged and healers usually in one corner together.
Titan Ex: Party stacks behind boss, moving only for mechanics.
Shiva Ex: Same thing.
Levi Ex: There's that one sweet spot ranged can stand and NOT get hit by what targets healers, dodge ANY dives, and hit anything on the ship.
T6, 8, 11, and parts of 5, 9, and 13: Party stacks; moves only for mechanics.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you NEED to whenever you want.

[Intellion]

Let me add (typing from my phone, so no editing), that no, I don't yet have Bard to 60, nor do I need it to know what I'm talking about. Having never moved much outside of mechanical-necessity, Minuet would NOT be a huge game changer for me. And no, I DON'T even have Minuet yet, but I did the 30-60 MCH, so yes I got the "complete fundamental change" at one point too. . . Nothing changed at all. Took some adjusting to, naturally, but largely what I do, and how I do it is still the same.

Perhaps it's due to having leveled healers and casters, or just a generally good sense of adaptation? Still, don't discredit someone simply for not being that job, not when their job is built on your "complete fundamental change".

The true issue here is gameplay, unfortunately.

It's true that people who've played casters might not see a problem with Minuet. However, there are those people who rolled Bard back in ARR because they love playing like Legolas (and mind you, there's nothing wrong with such a reason) and the 2.X Bard played exactly as such. People then learned and mastered that class for years since that's what's fun for them. Sure, DPS was on the low side, but they didn't mind (at least most BRDs didnt... although, yeah, there are THOSE few Bards...) since they loved the gameplay, and fun should be the priority over anything else in a video game.

Then 3.0 came, and while other classes simply got expansions of their pre-existing unique gameplay, Bards didn't. What Bards got was a forced and slapped-on mechanic that effectively takes all they've learned and what they've loved about the class and just tosses it out the window. It's not an expansion of their core mechanics; it's effectively a forced job change into a "Black Mage Trial Edition." If those Bards complain that if they wanted high DPS at the cost of casting, they would've rolled a BLM, they are mostly justified in saying so. Because as I said, the changes to Bard isn't just as simple as adding positionals or gaining a few new skills, it's more in line with main-ing Zangief for your entire Street Fighter career, and then in one patch, Capcom destroys Zangief by making him play like Guile now. Sure, he still has the same attacks, but to pull them off now, you HAVE to play like Guile. THAT'S how drastic and jarring the change was, which can only be truly understood by career Bards who have spent a LONG time with the class.

That is the problem here. SE turned their class into something MOST of them don't find fun. You could easily say "just find a new job," but tell me: which class do they switch into now if run-and-gun DPS is their specialty/forte?

And the argument that "Minuet is optional" isn't really true, because NOTHING is ever optional in FFXIV. That's another problem here. Bards can just keep Minuet off if they dislike it (Like I do), but now they will be shunned and discriminated against just because of playing the game the way the class had been advertised to them. No other class has to go through this but Bards. Either play the way you love, but get hated for it, or F*** your own enjoyment and playstyle for the sake of others' convenience.

That is why ACTUAL Bard experience is needed for credibility, because these are things you WOULDN'T understand if you've never mained Bard or spent a good amount of time learning its core mechanics before 3.0. or before Lv 52. Without credibility, it's so easy to spout nonsense like "Minuet = higher DPS. What's the problem here?" or "Minuet got buffed! BRDs are fixed! Hooray!", but REAL Bards will know that THOSE aren't what the true issue is.

[Duelle]

well they are wrong their dps is fine, their core design (songs) are fine.

Their core design was a DPS model built around instant attacks heavily relying on off-GCD skills and procs interacting with off-GCD skills. The very thing WM messed with. Some are understandably upset about it.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Gameplay style change, I can totally understand, Intellion. You made a very good point. I however am just of the minority that feels ripples in the water, not waves in terms of the change.

For those that did not want to be casters or purposely chose Bard so as not to deal with it, your frustration is valid, and I sympathize. But to those that simply do not like the change, or refuse to adapt, I sympathize, but less so. Only because I adapted. Not overnight, mind you, but in my own way, I did.

Bard and Machinist are far from perfect, and I'd wager bigger fixes are still coming. Nothing says we'll get what we want or even like what we get. But we do the best with what we've got. That goes for any job, however changed or different.

[Gallus]

The true issue here is gameplay, unfortunately.
and fun should be the priority over anything else in a video game.

Balance is the priority. Balance is based around objective data. Fun is subjective.

And the argument that "Minuet is optional" isn't really true, because NOTHING is ever optional in FFXIV. That's another problem here. Bards can just keep Minuet off if they dislike it (Like I do), but now they will be shunned and discriminated against just because of playing the game the way the class had been advertised to them. No other class has to go through this but Bards. Either play the way you love, but get hated for it, or F*** your own enjoyment and playstyle for the sake of others' convenience.

Of course it's not optional if you want to be optimal with a BRD, just like permanently sitting with minuette (like apparently you are making it out to be) isn't optional either, you'll want to turn off minuette when moving is mandatory . BRDs movement hasn't been destroyed, this is false. A BLM moving does NOTHING, nothing (well yes, scathe, lol), a BRD moving...loses like 10% of the DPS. I see a big difference here. You are not like a caster <.<.