Bard - they broke my job

[Tsaza]

They should remove that annoying sound effect when casting skills with WM active.

[Croisciento]

When you get to play machinist with GB you'll understand quickly the machinist was designed first before thinking about bard after 50. They tried to make the bard different with their "casting" spell on. It feels a lot better to play with the WM equivalent as Machinist than playing bard with it... I don't know about Square but you re-defining the core gameplay of a class after 2 years is really a bad idea, it was worth the risk but in the end I think it turned out terrible. People never cared about having less DPS, if that was the case they would be playing another class.

[LLamaPie]

When you get to play machinist with GB you'll understand quickly the machinist was designed first before thinking about bard after 50. They tried to make the bard different with their "casting" spell on. It feels a lot better to play with the WM equivalent as Machinist than playing bard with it... I don't know about Square but you re-defining the core gameplay of a class after 2 years is really a bad idea, it was worth the risk but in the end I think it turned out terrible. People never cared about having less DPS, if that was the case they would be playing another class.

The logic to me is that they didn't want bard to be more appealing than MCH. They both offer the same raid utility, so they had MCH designed with cast times and realized how that would be unappealing to most people. Then from there they realized everyone would just play bard. So they had to bring bard down to that level without giving it any sort of thought.

[Snowaeth]

The logic to me is that they didn't want bard to be more appealing than MCH. They both offer the same raid utility, so they had MCH designed with cast times and realized how that would be unappealing to most people. Then from there they realized everyone would just play bard. So they had to bring bard down to that level without giving it any sort of thought.

Well doesn't that just mean they made a bad design for the MCH in the first place?
You know they could have balanced it the other way around not giving MCH cast times and be more like the BRD, that was the general expectation to begin with until they announced how the class would work.

So now instead of copying design that a lot of people enjoyed, they copied a bad design decision and slapped it on a class that people played mostly because of not liking how the other classes played.

Or they could have just been more I don't know? Creative? And designed the MCH to be fun enough to pick even though it played completely different than the BRD.

[Lyaha]

The logic to me is that they didn't want bard to be more appealing than MCH. They both offer the same raid utility, so they had MCH designed with cast times and realized how that would be unappealing to most people. Then from there they realized everyone would just play bard. So they had to bring bard down to that level without giving it any sort of thought.

That's stupid, people would play it anyway for two reasons, it being new.. and guns.

[ChalupaBatman]

WP works with Pacification now at least, so WAR's will love you during first pull.

[Medieval]

I just came back from a long hiatus near the end of 2.0 I'm mostly only interested in the raids and what not. What exactly happened to the class to make it so hated? Is the dps terrible now or is the hate based on it being a turret stance? How does the class preform outside of said stance compared to the other classes? Is it viable atm in raids or am I better off gearing up and rolling dragoon/monk?

[Darkthrone]

Will Foe's ever affect windbite and flaming arrow?

[lugiaXD]

To be fair, with two or more mages it becomes fine again, but if got into an expert roulette with your BLM friend, and a healer that wasn't DPSing you wouldn't sing for your friend anymore (outside BV) the way they want it. I much prefer a buff being an actual buff, all the time, like all the other dps' buffs.

i don't want to be an ass and say "i would rather they let us play like we used to again instead of giving us some half baked design choices and cast times" especially since this is an idea that i am actually behind.

in terms of raid content you almost never play foes for the NIN so there's no point placing it in the argument, it does help them but compared to BLM it is EXTREMELY minimal.
you also need to remember that smn DoTs benefit greatly from Foes as well as all the new burst potential they have makes them get almost as much of a boost as blm.
however a pretty simple fix would be to allow only Foes through the WM support lockout. (foes already gets special treatment by not having the common misconceived damage penalty for playing it so why no allow it to be our only support ability within our kit that doesn't get locked out be that one specifically)
i mean dragoons and mnks get resistance downs within their rotation and if a nin is in party and you have a warrior they will most likely get the warrior to apply the slash resist down.
so why not let us throw the Casters a bone every now and then.

regardless of that, locking us out of support completely is the point. half the reason we don't get treated like real dps is because of our support hybrid bullshit, with this the risk is that you lose support for the party but you also need to know when you're better off letting the others have some help.
every raid team has their set ups, there's no one style of raid team that we MUST adhere to to clear. not to mention most times foes is played is only when BV is up except for on certain fights because you might need to save your MP for some emergency support.

while i know that most just play to 50% and then leave the rest if you're in an extended fight both brds and the melee become TP starved eventually so you'll need a lot of your MP to live till the next invig.
not sure if others notice but that 50% MP mark is really only good for MB when it comes to AP you want something closer to 80%+ otherwise you barely get any TP out of the song.

i will say i like your argument but i personally find that most of the time foes gets played during battle voice only so that we can save mp for other things. regardless the actual bonus you gain from foes for the casters was always pretty small, most just used it cause it was the only song we could play without a damage penalty which idm having FR be exempt from the suggested change we're discussing but I do really wanna point out that if SE really cared about our kit at all they wouldn't have let wide volley become useless.

[pinder2009]

The WM buff/EA+SW nerf translated to an about 50 dps increase for me with my likely subpar rotation. I didn't like WM when I first got it but by the time I hit 60 I accepted it and the dps was clearly higher so it was worth it to me. It does the change the rotation but that isn't necessarily a bad thing, its just something new and something we have to learn to play with and optimize.

For those of you bitching and moaning about WM just don't play with it on then. Outside of hardcore raid situations it won't matter if you have it or not. The only people that are really forced to learn and live with WM are the ones that will be doing hardcore raiding and looking to squeeze out every bit of dps from their class. With my own testing the dps difference between having WM and not having it on is about 100 dps.