Primal confusion - spoilers

[CodeCass]

Enkidu might be no more accurate an example of a primal than Hildibrand is an accurate example of what happens when you fall 500 stories and take a bomb to the face; however, you might also be able to find just the right framing of it to make just enough sense of it, with enough work. It might not flat out conflict with the world-lore in all cases, but it's dubious enough to not use it as a metric for speculation on matters unconfirmed.

This makes a lot of sense! Never thought about it like that.

[Zorzi]

Which just begs the question of why the Ixal would summon Garuda as she is: insane, bloodthirsty and not at all interested in helping the Ixal "regain their wings". Especially since she'll just as happily rip them to pieces as us, as long as it serves her ends. Why keep summoning that? It doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. Or maybe the Ixal are just insane, too.

I'm guessing they wanted a strong warrior, and the myth of Garuda does have her turn crazy at the end. Maybe their wish for wings got corrupted by the summoners' own subconscious idea of Garuda?

Also I think only the tempered continue summoning. The first time they were tricked by the Ascians, and then Garuda turned them into slaves. The Ixal daily NPCs that didn't get tempered are more sane and don't like her at all.

[Anonymoose]

Which just begs the question of why the Ixal would summon Garuda as she is: insane, bloodthirsty and not at all interested in helping the Ixal <...> Why keep summoning that?

Why is Garuda like she is...?

Much like my speculation about Ramuh, I think there's an interplay between the elemental philosophy, Ixal mythology, and present circumstances. Wind is capricious; it appears to change in direction and intensity on but a whim. (Capricious is actually been used to describe her, many times.) The original worship of Garuda wasn't centered on the Lady of the Vortex, but the Empress of Birds. Their legends say that she once did combat with the Lord of Snakes, a merciless reptilian deity that sought to bind all things to the ground. She overcame him, but was so injured that she was forced to consume his flesh to restore her own, which left her with an insatiable hunger for ground-walkers. She championed the avians, but she was mercurial and could be vicious.

Along come the Paragons - the messengers of the divine, as far as they know - five years after the Garlean Empire invades Eorzea. They hint that Garuda can be brought to this realm to fulfill their dreams, destroy the Garlean invaders (probably leaving out the part where the Garleans specifically hate summoned things), and keep them safe from any other aggressors. They'd spent 140 years becoming engineers and building airships and taking to the skies, but this was a chance to regain their wings, so they desperately grasped at it. (I'm assuming the appearance of, and supposed attacks by, the Reaper didn't help, considering the Ixal were there when it showed up in Thanalan and they fled screaming in terror. Actually, when it showed up, the Ashcrown Consortium had just defused a conflict between Amalj'aa and Ixal arguing over crystals and whose primal was stronger and would be the one to crush the Empire; they were about to summon Ifrit and Garuda to battle for them right there; pretty much exactly what the Ascians wanted.)

Now, the Garuda Card hints that being imbued with the ever shifting, ever moving, ever changing aspect of wind is part of what broke the primal's mind (perhaps upon her summoning, perhaps just as an inherent part of it), so if you combine that with what the Ixal to believe her origin story to be while factoring in for philosophical associations of wind as well as their desire to see her crush the Empire, it's not so weird that she turned out like she did.

Why keep summoning her...!?

Tempering, mainly, I'd assume. She tempered the group that summoned her right out of the gate, those who didn't submit to it were exiled by the ones who did. Tempering removes all doubt of divinity; no matter what she does or doesn't do, she's still The One True God for them. I'd bet the general sentiment at the Ixal camps was, "Well, no, she hasn't given us our feathers and wings back, yet, but she helps our balloons fly with her airstones, and one day, when we make her happy, when we're truly worthy..." Stockholm Syndrome of the Gods.

The leader of the Ehcatl Nine laments this, harshly criticizing the Ixal for not realizing that Garuda is mad and will never grant their wings.

[Andres_Lonegrief]

As far as I knew:

Phoenix was turned into a primal by the twelve (whom had been summoned by Louisoux in the attempt of sealing Bahamut) .

Odin's sword is the real primal (Odin is just a temptered victim that keeps praying so that the sword can be kept alive).

I didn't know about the difference between Primals and Eikons, but this might explains a few things.

Primals are the primary entity (the real "god"), then Eikons (anciente greek for image) are their representation / aberrations (what is summoned).

This wouldn't explain why Bahamut is regarded as an elder primal though.

Btw, where do they talk about paragons/reapers and eikons? I don't remember reading about them in the main quests ...

[myahele]

Whatever the Eikons were, they are in a different league of their own and separate from Primals. Proto Primals of sorts. The basis to which Ascien summoning method came to be.

Even FF6 don't really describe their origins but perhaps we can gleam more info on them:

Three gods descended from the heavens and fearing one another's power, began to war. The mortals caught among their fighting became espers and were forced to fight as slaves to the gods.

I'm getting alot of FF6 vibe and now we know that there are plenty of sleeping primals. Now, what if these Primals were the Eikon's slaves? Afterall, mortals can become Primals/"gods" (that seems to be lahabrea's goal)and can also become thralls of even more powerful Primals

[Cilia]

As far as I knew:

Phoenix was turned into a primal by the twelve (whom had been summoned by Louisoux in the attempt of sealing Bahamut) .

Odin's sword is the real primal (Odin is just a temptered victim that keeps praying so that the sword can be kept alive).

I didn't know about the difference between Primals and Eikons, but this might explains a few things.

Primals are the primary entity (the real "god"), then Eikons (anciente greek for image) are their representation / aberrations (what is summoned).

This wouldn't explain why Bahamut is regarded as an elder primal though.

Btw, where do they talk about paragons/reapers and eikons? I don't remember reading about them in the main quests ...

We don't know how exactly Louisoix ascended into Phoenix. It's implied that it's because of the massive quantity of aether from the botched Twelve summoning combined with the prayers of the people for deliverance and rebirth.

The exact difference between primals and eikons has yet to be cleared up. As far as I can tell from what little information we have, eikons don't need active worshipers to maintain their identity or presence in the world.

Bahamut is regarded as an elder primal because he predates any modern civilizations. The Meracydian dragons were all either wiped out or imprisoned in Dalamud or on Azys Lla, and vanished into memory before Dalamud's fall. What defines a primal as "elder" isn't clear, but suffice to say if it's worshiped by a modern civilization it's not an elder primal.

The reapers were (are) an alternate form the Ascians took on during 1.x. The Ascian Prime at the end of the Aetherochemical Research Facility heavily resembles them, for reference. The Ascians are also occasionally referred to as Paragons, even during 2.0+ (Ifrit says they told him not to tolerate us, for instance, and I believe Alphinaud refers to them as Paragons once or twice during the main scenario).

You only get told there's a distinct difference between primals and eikons if you pick up the Heavensward Primal EX quest.

[WhiteArchmage]

IIRC, Moose had an interview with Koji Fox and he gave the distinction between primals and elder primals. The latter have just been worshiped for a very long time, sometimes by civilizations that no longer exist, simple as that. (again, IF I recall correctly, don't have that interview on hand and the Moose may just correct me in 5 minutes)

I do believe that, while not pulling the EXACT "soul" of the primal, the summoners call up a "close enough" phantom out of the essence of their element. Earth is nurturing and as such Titan is a father to his kobolds, Garuda is flighty and mad, Ramuh is wise but harsh and makes no distinctions...or this could all be refuted next patch, who knows? It's fun either way

[dragoelete]

personally i think primal= a being that was summoned by a mortal being
elder primal= a being that was summoned by an immortal being
eikon= something that is sentient or partially sentient being in the aetherial realm that summons itself in some way into the physical world

[Anonymoose]

IIRC, Moose had an interview with Koji Fox and he gave the distinction between primals and elder primals. The latter have just been worshiped for a very long time, sometimes by civilizations that no longer exist, simple as that. (again, IF I recall correctly, don't have that interview on hand and the Moose may just correct me in 5 minutes)

Nope, you're correct.

Snipped from [Full Interview]

Fusionx: What is the difference between a Primal and an Elder Primal?

Koji Fox: Basically it’s all a matter of length of worship. With primals, it’s all about how you have someone worshiping you and you become that primal and they believe in you and you get your power from that. For the Ixal or the Amalj’aa, it’s the belief that makes the aether combine to summon forth these primals—so when you look at Ifrit, and Titan, and the one’s we’re calling primals, they’re considered very young. They’ve been believing in them for a long time, but looked at in a span of all the eras it’s not that much time.

Anwyll: Originally, we thought it might be more complicated than that, <...> but it’s just has to do with the length of time?

Koji Fox: Basic length of time.

[Kallera]

Not to throw another wrench into this...but where do the Twelve fit in? They are worshipped, but not made manifest(except an attempt by lousioux, but that didn't quite last...). Is it that their worship do not typically involve the siphoning of aether/crystals as a ritual?