Primal confusion - spoilers

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Well, eikons are primals, but still, Odin is an exception. Which "mortal desire" does he represents ? It's not even the one of the guy who takes its sword, because it's the guy who becomes Odin, not the other way around, like for Ysayle.

Right now, we don't know enough about the warring triad... We can see their statues though, and one of them seems to have a third ete like garleans but... What are they ? Don't know.

Primals are power incarnated through crystals and will, but maybe there are "true gods" like Odin and the warring triad, That behave in a similar way... Still, that's not convincing, but that's only what we've got right now. Maybe the warring triad are Hydaelyn, Zodiark and Midgardsormr locked in a human-similar body, maybe they are mortals That became so powerful they became gods (like Odin is assumed to have), but really...

I really like to speculate on lore theories, but I don't feel like doing it with so little x)

[Toranja]

You are right. They do not match.

In the begin, you get the clear distinction they draw upon the World of Forms to frame the nature of the Primals.

Then, they move closer to some idealist framework.

In what touches the Ascians and the Primals, they changed their minds. They decided to go the Neon Genesis Evangelion way.

[SecretCrowds]

What about Phoenix then? Eikon or primal?

[LaurelinKementari]

I find it hard to just write off Ramuh as a mere conjured up image of Sylphic prayer. It just doesn't match with the character we've seen in the 2.3 cutscenes. Ramuh remembers a time before the age of man, as if he was there when it happened. You could say that just represents Sylphic desire of a world without man, but why then summon a primal that looks like a very old Elezen? Out of a desire to have man as their protector instead of aggressor? I suppose that could fit, if you squint, but I don't like it myself. I always thought the original primals we face were pre-existing souls, or personalities if you will, that existed on their own in the lifestream. Self-aware and independant beings, but without corporeal form. Kind of like the Elementals. They can manifest in the physical world by devoted prayer and with the aid of crystals, but they're not "made up" by mortals and when slain, their soul and self-identity remains and returns to the Aetherial realm. Then Moggle Mog came along and muddled things up. Then Bahamut and Shiva and Odin made it even more complicated. Then Hraesvelgr and Tiamat threw up even more smoke, and now we have a difference between Eikon and Primal. Seems the longer we go on, the less clear it becomes.

[Akiza]

The only true Gods revealed Gods so far are Hydaelyn, Zodiark and the Twelve which were created by Hyadelyn.

[CodeCass]

I'm also curious of how Enkidu fits in to all this. I guess his situation falls into the "Ease of Summoning" line of questioning.

[Lethorian]

The only true Gods revealed Gods so far are Hydaelyn, Zodiark and the Twelve which were created by Hyadelyn.

The Twelve are primals. At the end of 1.0 people are told to pray to the 12 to save Eorzea, then the mega aether staff is used to manifest those prayers in order to trap Bahamut but it fails. Prayer + Aether = Primal.

The result of this is Luisiox (spell check please) then using those same prayers for the realm to be reborn after the devastation it went through and the remaining aether from the failed summoning of the 12 in order to turn into Phoenix (the symbol for rebirth) to defeat Bahamut.

[Vydos]

I'm also curious of how Enkidu fits in to all this. I guess his situation falls into the "Ease of Summoning" line of questioning.

Well, if we're talking about Enkidu. You just need to remember that S-E made this (imo stupid) lore formula of: Strong Prayers + tons of crystal or aether = ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN.

It's now becoming a very recurrent theme in the game. Which I believe they created, for the simple reason that it becomes easy to add new creatures, summons and so on in the game. "Oh shit we need a new primal but we have no lore or good reason to not disrupt the current lore. Oh right, we don't need to worry about that. Because we have our winning formula that explains everything!"

But enough about the small rant.

I actually had the exact opinion as LaurelinKementari about the primals and Ramuh. It's believeable for all of the primals except Ramuh who seems to speak about an age with no man. But at the same time, I created my theory that when a primal is created, that a soul or multiple souls in the lifestream become connected to the entity. Thus creating the personality and knowledge that came with the soul(s). But I'm thinking more of a central core that taps into the data of the souls in the lifestream and maybe even those that are still alive.

It would explain a lot of things.

Examples:

Bahamut: Linked to the many angered wyvern souls and maybe even Bahamut himself.
Shiva: Linked to the soul of Ysayle (and maybe shiva as well)
Ramuh: Linked to something that existed around those times.

Just a random theory. It could also explain why some Primals like Ravana are more noble warriors if his entity were to be linked with the soul(s) of ancient and proud warriors.

[Anonymoose]

Now that I've had some time to puzzle out some order in this thread...

I'm a bit confused about the primals' origins

Aether + Zealous, Focused Prayer = [Primal] where [Primal = Aetherial shade bearing the shape of what was prayed for].

causing a massive aetherical explosion that allowed Primals to roam in Eorzea

This event, known as the Battle of Silvertear Skies (aka the Fall of the Keeper), shattered a seal that Midgardsormr was protecting. The seal was placed upon a massive confluence of aether, the nature of which will be revealed later in the Version 3 cycle. We don't really understand the nature of the seal, but we know that primal aether becomes tainted; perhaps the Allag were doing something with primal-tainted aether.

In 2.0 we just know that the beast tribes love summoning primals to get rid of people or to protect themeselves

This was true back in 1.0, as well. After the Fall of the Keeper, the Ascians started appearing to the beast tribes in the guise of their divine messengers, the Paragons. They taught to them the secrets of summoning their gods, who they said would lead them to salvation in times of strife. Summoning leads to (in some cases) tempering, and tempering leads to conflict with the five races (and some already had a history of conflict with them at that). With the invasion of the Garlean Empire, the beast tribes were already on edge, this only served to exacerbate it; the Ascians are all about chaos via conflict and death. However, the Ascians were also showing up without their Paragon costume on, scaring the hells out of the beast tribes. The Amalj'aa and Ixal were terrified of the reaper, and (in the unreleased Titan quests) the Reaper was said to flat out attack Mt. O'Ghomoro to stoke the summoning of Titan.

Ramuh: he wants to test the Warrior of Light's strength and isn't really an enemy. How come?

As far as we know? The nature of lightning as a philosophical element (wise and calculating, but swift, and merciless in its judgment) and the mindset of the Sylphs that summoned him. They wanted a wise, benevolent judge that would protect the wood as they knew it.

What "sealed" the primals back then?

The Secrets of Allag™

What about Phoenix then? Eikon or primal?

We've been told primal, we may be told otherwise later. Depends on what the eventual meaning of eikon turns out to be.

Ramuh <...> remembers a time before the age of man, as if he was there when it happened.

But does he? Ysayle knew Shiva's emotions and sentiments, but it was all conjured by her own mind. The sylphs could have imbued him with these memories, or they could very well be true and drawn straight from the memories of the aether. We don't really know yet, but we have more options than simply, "Ramuh remembers."

Seems the longer we go on, the less clear it becomes.

All we can really go on is what we've been told, and then theories that don't conflict with what we've been told. Time will tell!

I'm also curious of how Enkidu fits in to all this. I guess his situation falls into the "Ease of Summoning" line of questioning.

If it comes from the Hildibrand story, it's only canon as you want to think it is. It's written by a scenario team, and sometimes even the people who make the world lore don't think it conforms with it. Because this is a comedy scenario, there's a bit more wiggle room; Hildibrand can get a pass on something that doesn't make sense (or, at least heavily exaggerates something that does) if it's funny. The NPCs themselves tell you that it doesn't fit with what we know; they stop just short of breaking the fourth wall to say "This makes no sense. You, on the other side of the screen, don't take this too seriously!" Enkidu might be no more accurate an example of a primal than Hildibrand is an accurate example of what happens when you fall 500 stories and take a bomb to the face; however, you might also be able to find just the right framing of it to make just enough sense of it, with enough work. It might not flat out conflict with the world-lore in all cases, but it's dubious enough to not use it as a metric for speculation on matters unconfirmed.

The Twelve are primals.

The Twelve that would be summoned if someone tried to summon them would be akin to primals, but there might be more to them... somewhere.
Or they might all be embellished myths based on the Zodiac Braves or the Archons or something...

[LaurelinKementari]

Aether + Zealous, Focused Prayer = [Primal] where [Primal = Aetherial shade bearing the shape of what was prayed for].

Which just begs the question of why the Ixal would summon Garuda as she is: insane, bloodthirsty and not at all interested in helping the Ixal "regain their wings". Especially since she'll just as happily rip them to pieces as us, as long as it serves her ends. Why keep summoning that? It doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. Or maybe the Ixal are just insane, too.