Dragoon Punished at lvl 58 - What needs to be done with Wheeling Thrust

[FreyrPrime]

While I'm not Seekified or Dervy, I feel after a few dozen clears of Rav Ex that I'm comfortable enough with DRG to admit that I'm not a fan of the rotation.

Is it doable? Sure!
Is it hard? Not really.
Is it fun? NO! At least not for me.

Honestly, it has nothing to do with the positionals. I've mained Monk for much of SCoB and FCoB, positionals aren't a problem if you know how to run the razors edge between flank and back. It's BotD. BotD just isn't fun. It's like they somehow took Greased Lightning and made it even more janky.

Right now I love how Dragoon looks. I love it's lore, it's animations, etc etc.. It just doesn't thrill me to play. I dread playing DRG now despite easily being our statics top dps.

[Teiren]

While I'm not Seekified or Dervy, I feel after a few dozen clears of Rav Ex that I'm comfortable enough with DRG to admit that I'm not a fan of the rotation.

Is it doable? Sure!
Is it hard? Not really.
Is it fun? NO! At least not for me.

Honestly, it has nothing to do with the positionals. I've mained Monk for much of SCoB and FCoB, positionals aren't a problem if you know how to run the razors edge between flank and back. It's BotD. BotD just isn't fun. It's like they somehow took Greased Lightning and made it even more janky.

Right now I love how Dragoon looks. I love it's lore, it's animations, etc etc.. It just doesn't thrill me to play. I dread playing DRG now despite easily being our statics top dps.

After playing more and more, I agree with this. I enjoy the numbers and the feeling of success from performing a complete, flawless rotation through Blood for Blood. I enjoy everything but certain pieces of the gameplay. It was really cool at first to keep extending Blood of the Dragon, but it has some serious problems that alter the Dragoon job more than I think it should.

Oh, and something else I'd like to add, the randomization is either a bug or a serious flaw is design decision making, because when HW was demoed at E3, FnC ALWAYS came after Chaos Thrust, and WT ALWAYS came after Full Thrust. There was no randomization.

I did not know this. Just...wow, what a major screwup. Also um, the combo abilities are definitely a major DPS gain by themselves, or they would be if they were always at least 230-240 Potency. The problem is that if you miss their positional bonus, then the +Jump and Spineshatter Dive damage is NOT enough to make up for that. Geirskogul barely manages to make it a DPS gain to use them at 100 Potency if you're actually able to use Geirskogul which is definitely not going to be the case much of the time. Of course Monks lose DPS if they miss their positional bonuses, but they never have to question at any level if they should use any of their weaponskills.

[Dervy]

I think the issue isn't the Job, but the fight mechanics that make the Dragoon very stressful such sucks the fun out of the Job. It's the same issue Black Mages are having.

I'm loving the Dragoon and all of the skills. But, from what we've seen so far of 3.0, your success as a Dragoon is heavily reliant on your Group composition, your tactics as well as their speed clear. I could go on about it for days, but if you have a very high DPS group, your group can skip The Seeing X Mechanics. You can skip running around adds if you have a WHM Medica Spam, take the hate, and have the BLM/BRD to AOE nuke whilst you, the melee, does nothing but focus on Ravana and hope you don't get screwed.

Let's say tomorrow, they change it so Wheeling Thrust procs after Chaos Thrust and Fang & Claw procs after Full Thrust. Let's say in Alexander Floor 1, there's a mechanic where you're unable to hit the rear of your target, but you're now doing a Chaos Thrust combo. Well, GG 190+50 potency loss as you can't hit the rear, which Wheeling Thrust and Chaos Thrust requires. This puts you in a worse situation than what we currently have. At least with the 50/50 proc situation, there's that 50% chance you're not getting screwed over.

Yeah, it's RNjesus reliant, but that isn't the jobs fault you got screwed over. That's the mechanics not allowing you to hit from that position of the boss. It's unfortunate at both Bismarck + Ravana Extreme Mode are fights where it's extremely difficult to hit your positionals and so, you need to play risky, desperate and stress over your rotation more than normal, as you're putting twice as much effort to ensure all of your timings are 100% perfect. That's the fight not thought out and not catering properly for jobs.

Oh, and something else I'd like to add, the randomization is either a bug or a serious flaw is design decision making, because when HW was demoed at E3, FnC ALWAYS came after Chaos Thrust, and WT ALWAYS came after Full Thrust. There was no randomization.

It's not a bug, lol. They weren't even using a release build, but a special build for that event.

As for the BotD mechanic, WT and FnC isn't really a dps boost by itself.

You're very, very wrong.

[enil]

It's about game enjoyment.

Fun is pretty subjective.
Dragoon has changed, some people find it more fun, other don't find it as fun. It's not possible to cater for every single player - it's not likely SE will change major mechanics because some people don't find it fun. You are better off playing another job which feels more "fun" to you.

[enil]

...

Wasn't my intention to be dismissive. Sorry, if it sounded that way.

It was more for the people who intensely dislike DRG as it stands at the moment. The biggest indicator those people can do is, stop playing DRG - as with Warriors were nonexistant in First Coil, showing them with numbers is probably the best way to get them to change things.

It is a bit frustrating listening to people complain about their feelings and opinions. There's no real discussion to be had - just people venting out their dislike for the new mechanics.

[Teiren]

Yeah, that's why I'm trying to come up with, and encourage others to come up with, suggestions to fix this. I want devs to see good feedback. It's all okay as long as they're aware, and I don't hate ALL of the gameplay, just a little of it. I don't think my fix is flawless (for example, having to randomly use a GCD on Wheeling Thrust could screw up things). It's just an idea.

And yeah, I completely get what you're saying, Dervy. I think this kind of gameplay is really great and fun!...against a striking dummy, or anything that just sits there like one. I loved it from the beginning, but it was when I had to go do some actual fights that it became frustrating.

Anyway, I don't think I can post much more on this topic, but I'll keep following it. It feels like everything's been said, so I'm just gonna finish off by posting a recap of what I think are the 3 most important highlights, including my own plug. Feel free to call that part silly. This is my post. :P And it's not that anyone else's opinion was irrelevant, just that I think these posts encapsulate a lot of the messages people are expressing. Finally, really sorry for possibly killing your eyes here.

#1:

While I'm not Seekified or Dervy, I feel after a few dozen clears of Rav Ex that I'm comfortable enough with DRG to admit that I'm not a fan of the rotation.

Is it doable? Sure!
Is it hard? Not really.
Is it fun? NO! At least not for me.

Honestly, it has nothing to do with the positionals. I've mained Monk for much of SCoB and FCoB, positionals aren't a problem if you know how to run the razors edge between flank and back. It's BotD. BotD just isn't fun. It's like they somehow took Greased Lightning and made it even more janky.

Right now I love how Dragoon looks. I love it's lore, it's animations, etc etc.. It just doesn't thrill me to play. I dread playing DRG now despite easily being our statics top dps.

#2: (Edited for space)

I think the issue isn't the Job, but the fight mechanics that make the Dragoon very stressful such sucks the fun out of the Job. It's the same issue Black Mages are having.

I'm loving the Dragoon and all of the skills. But, from what we've seen so far of 3.0, your success as a Dragoon is heavily reliant on your Group composition, your tactics as well as their speed clear.

Let's say tomorrow, they change it so Wheeling Thrust procs after Chaos Thrust and Fang & Claw procs after Full Thrust. Let's say in Alexander Floor 1, there's a mechanic where you're unable to hit the rear of your target, but you're now doing a Chaos Thrust combo. Well, GG 190+50 potency loss as you can't hit the rear, which Wheeling Thrust and Chaos Thrust requires. This puts you in a worse situation than what we currently have. At least with the 50/50 proc situation, there's that 50% chance you're not getting screwed over.

Yeah, it's RNjesus reliant, but that isn't the jobs fault you got screwed over. That's the mechanics not allowing you to hit from that position of the boss. It's unfortunate at both Bismarck + Ravana Extreme Mode are fights where it's extremely difficult to hit your positionals and so, you need to play risky, desperate and stress over your rotation more than normal, as you're putting twice as much effort to ensure all of your timings are 100% perfect. That's the fight not thought out and not catering properly for jobs.

#3:

A long-term fix that I would like to see would look like this:

- Chaos Thrust and Full Thrust always combo into Fang and Claw while under Blood of the Dragon.
- Fang and Claw non-flank potency increased to 230.
- Fang and Claw has a 60% chance to combo into Wheeling Thrust.
- Wheeling Thrust potency increased to 500 regardless of position. Does not extend Blood of the Dragon.

Now yes, 500 potency looks overpowered, but keep in mind that it would only be executable 60% of the time and only after a long combo. Thus it would be more like a 300 potency attack, nearly identical to the 290 potency from the rear we have now. Little would actually change in DPS overall, but this would at least have the potential to feel awesome. That said, having a random combo skill could be extremely frustrating unlike Firestarter. I'm not sure.

Again, this isn't about making DRG overpowered but just about making the relationship between weaponskills feel fun and cool. If this would make DRG too powerful, then other Jobs' damage should be increased to match.

[Outfoxed]

the random positional is okay with me. more annoying is blood of the dragon and the headache that comes with that

[Zophar]

the random positional is okay with me. more annoying is blood of the dragon and the headache that comes with that

Right? Nothing I hate more now than useless crap tanks who stare at the next pull like they've forgotten how to play, while I sit there watching my timer tick down.

[Leonus]

Not gonna lie, I really like the new BotD mechance and it is what drew mw back front ninja. The old drg rotation was... really stale to me. This new mechanic keels me on my toes like nin does ( albeit slower and more deliberate) and I like the "greased lightning timer" feel as well. It has me always pushing to refresh.

The only thing I have a gripe with is the potency loss for missed positional. This is one of the major things that chased me front drg to nin in the first place. (Also nin was new)

[GrizzlyTank]

Random isn't fun, nor it is it any difficult. All it does is making you focus on your skill bar/buff bar rather than the fight itself, which is monotonous.

It would have been better if they made either Wheeling Thrust or Fang and Claw have one aditional effect and made Wheeling Thrust the 4th combo after Full Thrust and Fang and Claw the 4th combo after Chaos Thrust.
This way the player would have to switch position at least 4 times throughout the combo rather than the original 2.

There the difficulity for playing the class is all ready increased since the player is put at more risk if he want to maximize his damadge output, and the player is rewarded for doing the level 58 quest.