Ways to fix BRD and MCH in a realistic way

[Lewtskie]

You guys do make my head hurt. The only people so far this entire time who have said "lol, bards should do same dps as the rest" have been people like Musa and why they keep thinking we say that is beyond reasoning. People like me and Intel understand why we do less damage overall and are okay with that. What we aren't okay with is how far below the par we've dropped. Compared to our par with other dps before HW and now, the gap is getting bigger. Minuet is suppose to make up for that but it's so clunky and lacks synergy with who we are that it calls into question its overall usefulness. And even outside of usefulness, people are peeved because it is going against one of the aesthetics advertised as a Bard early on.

Which brings another thing. No one has said that the only reason we are brought to anything is because Legolas. My entire time here has been to rebut claims that the only thing important about a Bard is their songs. A sensible person is not going to only see one third of what makes a Bard. You need to see ALL that we offer:

-We provide a mechanic of supplementation to other roles, either increasing damage or refreshing resources.
-We deal moderate levels of damage with efficient spikes throughout a fight.
-We can maneuver seamlessly through a battlefield without having to sacrifice our core role's mechanic.

This is everything that makes a Bard. And the value of one over another is a constantly shifting system. Sometimes people need our support, other times we need our mobility, and every time when neither of those apply WE ESPECIALLY NEED OUR DAMAGE.

I don't hate Wanderer's, I see the potential. I've been using it plenty and am getting a better hang of it, but as it is right now it's warped and needs some serious fine tuning. The best thing right now would remove that damn cast time. Giving us that the synergy with it would increase exponentially. Not doing anything for a couple minutes we pop Wanderer's and go to town, taking it back off to work a mechanic while still providing damage, then going right back into it when the work is done. That would be great.

But another issue that arises is when we need to be in Wanderer's for that damage but the fight makes it increasingly hard to pull off our rotations. And it's understandable that casters have had to deal with this shit since day one, for every enhanced fireball a BLM can throw we would need two or three Straight shots or two Empyreal Arrows. Hell, once a SMN has all their dots on and their pet on the target that's 3/4th their damage cycle so having to interrupt a Ruin isn't heartbreaking. So yeah, if we are gonna be sacrificing one aspect for another, we need it to count.

Of course, they could also make it so they are blended together well enough, little more damage with little less mobility. I've said in the past what they could do is not make it a cast entirely, but make it so it's a charge that slows us down. About the same speed we move when we are back stepping while locked on, but as this while charging a weaponskill.

So it's best were we to get one or the other. Just not what we have right now.

Another issue atm is we could also use some tuning to the support aspect. As it is right now, everyone is getting some support mechanic to their kits that doesn't hurt them. Only exception I think is NIN. Skills that mark debuffs or skills that give the entire party a damage or crit buff. Something. We need something else to go beyond that. MP/TP regen onyl goes so far and this new pre-esuna nonsense was just a slap in the face.

So honestly, I feel right now every one of our aspects is in dangerous territory.

[Eirwen]

Unfortunately I don't think that'll be enough to convince people as the argument tossed at those calculations will then be how it's a perfect situation and not one you move around or have to dodge in.

Well yeah, there's always that. Can't satisfy the entire game population. There's always something. Wanting to keep the 20% damage bonus and being able to dodge without losing DPS.

[emmgee]

EDIT:
Out of curiosity I opened Google Sheets and calculated if WM does give us a loss in DPS. Do take these stats with a grain of salt, as I used some simple numbers instead my actual DPS.


Surprisingly Wanderer's Minuet DOES do 20% more damage. I'm going to test this out in my FC's backyard later.
Going by these numbers, if you think you did great on Bard pre-3.0 then you get about 10 seconds to dodge stuff per minute whilst in WM to not let your DPS suffer too much in comparison on how strong you were before and instead have only wasted WM for that moment.

This math is so wrong it hurts my brain.

One - you're completely ignoring auto attacks
Two - the GCD is the same in and out of minuet.

[Lillia]

Well yeah, there's always that. Can't satisfy the entire game population. There's always something. Wanting to keep the 20% damage bonus and being able to dodge without losing DPS.

rofl and there it goes right below your post, though I can't say they are wrong. ^^;

[Eirwen]

rofl and there it goes right below your post, though I can't say they are wrong. ^^;

Haha, true!

This math is so wrong it hurts my brain.

One - you're completely ignoring auto attacks
Two - the GCD is the same in and out of minuet.

Yep, I ignored auto attacks. Or did I? Doesn't auto-attack get included in the Damage Per Second? Eh?
And yes, GCD is the same in and out of minuet, but I added the casting time of WM to that under the same name.
Sorry I wasn't all that accurate and like to see some real results.

P.S. I did say to take it with a grain of salt

[Musashidon]

songs. A sensible person is not going to only see one third of what makes a Bard. You need to see ALL that we offer:

-We provide a mechanic of supplementation to other roles, either increasing damage or refreshing resources.
-We deal moderate levels of damage with efficient spikes throughout a fight.
-We can maneuver seamlessly through a battlefield without having to sacrifice our core role's mechanic.

1 songs
2 you deal damage
3 nothing?

seriously you have 1 thing going for you in that list. songs.

everyone deals damage even healers.

don't sacrifice core mechanics of the job in battle? you mean you can run and shoot at the same time? lol great quality too bad nobody picks you for that.


the only thing you keep repeating is i don't do enough, it says i am dps and i shouldn't lose mobility that i like so much!!!


we gained 10 lvls and 55 ilvls in weapons and 45 ilvls in gear guess what the gap is going to get bigger the damage gap in weapon damage also got bigger by 1 damage.

135 is 6 damage difference from other dps and 190 is a 7 damage difference.

snip

there are 4 dps and 2 tanks, that means there is at least 2 people in your raid that will run out of tp no if's and's or but's

if you have at least 1 melee that's 3 without a bard all 3 lose 100% of their dpsing capabilities about what 4 minutes in?

bards keep the whole raid running, no other job comes even close to what a bards songs can do. goad? sure now you only lose 2 jobs (if you use 3 melees as an example) but you still lose lots of dps because of the lack of songs and this isn't including mages ballad for when your heals will run out of mp because they will and they you lose all survivablity.

[emmgee]

A correct estimation of damage increase in WM would have to take into account the following:

The loss of auto attacks (100pot/3s) in minuet. Auto attacks have been roughly 25% of our damage pre-HW.
The difference in determination scaling of auto attacks and weaponskills (this was changed in HW)
The amount of skillspeed you have (the more Sks you have, the better WM should become compared to normal)
The estimated PPS difference of having access to Empyrean Arrow - its roughly +100 potency (compared to a heavy shot) every 15s
The difference of having access to Iron jaw (roughly 1 gcd saved every 18s)
The lost bloodletters in WM from only being able to use one oGCD inbetween skills

In short, you can't look at '20% damage' and take it at face value - in reality the bonus is FAR SMALLER than that, even in a dummy. My parses have shown around a 5% increase in dummy dps. Losing auto attacks is HUGE.

[Warlyx]

BRD and MCH take a dps slot , and im sure SE is aware that some raids wont have a brd 100% all the time , what happens when BRD and MCH arent avaliable? even for statics with 9-10+ members...

the whole coil and in the end more than at the start all was a dps race , with LOTS OF DPS CHECKS , if BRD/MCH arent putting numbers or doing "dps" and helping others members doing more dmg then SE Failed to design BRD.

brd is usefull? kinda....but the low dmg dont makes up for it...., ppl like to talk about "balance" and dps , support....

please tell me why a warrior even taken as DPS atm has wayyyyyy more support than any brd will dream of ,Burst DPS , AOE DPS , -10% dmg taken , slashing debuff ,can OT or MT if needed ...while outdpsing both brd and mch on abandon mode (not tanking)

SMN , atm is the AOE king , and can sustain good single target/cleave dps , on top of eye for eye , virus , and battle raise , all while being semi-mobile

Nin , isnt the best dps atm (Drg and mnk are better afaik) ,but NIn brings Melee LB, Trick attack , goad , and agro transfers to the table

all the jobs have been improved in HW but BRD , jobs that needed more DPS got that (have u seen whm atm?) , jobs that lacked AOE healing (SCH) or burst DPS( SMN ) got that in HW

[NoahArks]

Make GB and WM useful? Pretty much take out the cast time, or give back the auto attack. I noticed I do a lot more damage without my GB on. Not lvl60 yet, but I'm doing it extremely slow so I won't get burned out after a month, like what happened with the 2.0 release.


No GB:
Auto-attack: 200-300
Damage with skills:400-550 (no crit)


GB:
Damage with skills: 600-700


So in the perfect condition you hit the same/more without using GB. Especially since there is a 1second cast time, and we mch are still stuck with the rngesus for optimal damage.



The other method would be losing the rng and just give it 100% proc rate.

[Snugglebutt]

-snip-

Stop posting in a thread about a class you clearly have no clue about.

I find it interesting the most verbal opponents yet most ignorant of the class in these threads tends to mostly come from people who claim to know the class despite not even having a capped bard themselves. The amount of fear mongering about possible changes by those of other classes stinks of wanting to screw over this class or machinist to make themselves look better in group composition or plain old ignorance. Perhaps stick to threads you might have a better understanding of such as your own class ones instead of spouting nonsense in different class ones you have no experience playing in endgame content at capped level and fully unlocked/used skills.

Just because you have an opinion about something which potentially have little to no practical experience with and you on the outside looking in does not make that opinion worth much, the people SE need to listen to about the problems with bards and machinists are the players who actually do play them, have the practical experience of using them in high level content using all the skills themselves on the class itself and not other players of other classes just throwing in ignorant or fear mongering comments. I also dislike when a low level archer or bard thinks they know what it is like to play at capped level using skills they have yet to unlock, in the sense of them arguing with those bards who have spent a lot of time experiencing all the skills it has at the capped level in high end content. Practical experience with the class trumps theory crafting and generic opinions of other class players.

It is becoming very annoying when people who do not play a class come into threads talking about them as though they know the class when clearly they don't and I see this all the time whenever a class thread comes up other classes pop in and voice their opinion on it despite having no practical experience playing it themselves. The class discussion is better suited to those whom are both informed and experienced in using it. Why don't you start a bard, cap it and experience what it is like to play in endgame content using all the skills on that class...then come back and have a more insightful opinion on it. Not all bards who have such practical experience agree with each other but at least in those cases they are coming from a position of experience and first hand knowledge instead of random guess work, inexperienced assumption and mere outside theory crafting.