SMN Theorycraft and comparison to Blm

[HaroldSaxon]

I assume when you said dps utility you meant utility for a dps.

If you actually meant a damage buff I'll say no, this is a pointless homogenization if every single class brought a buff that buffed...their class.

Might as well bake it into every class's abilities to do 10% more damage.

DPS utility if it isn't a cooldown or something isn't that - esp if it doesn't even change their rotation at all (like ninja, and dragoon). It wouldn't change gameplay, it wouldn't make SMN more desirable, and it would be as if it didn't even exist.

As to your points about stuff,

1. Virus's cooldown is longer than its duration. However a SCH and a SMN together can provide maximum supervirus uptime. Other classes using virus is a loss.
2. Since every fight so far has adds, and most bosses are immune to slow, I'd wager that having 2 areas for shadowflare is better than 1. For instance, bismarck.
3. Uniqueness is overrated. I'm really not sure what you are looking for here.

I'm looking for Casters to actually be viable other than cheese fight mechanics (i.e. Physical damage down, Magical damage up, prevention of 3 melee's on the boss). Because right now, theres no reason to bring one unless one of those happen. And even without that, the optimal setup is still 2 x Melee, 1 x Caster, 1 x Utility.

There are clearly fixes that BLM needs, and I don't think SMN are overpowered considering the above. I've never said 10% for the buff, and I've never said to give every single class a buff.

What I have said is to give SMN the ability to buff casters (not just their own class) so if a group wants to, they can run a 2 x Caster, 1 x Melee, 1 x Utility lineup without a large drop in DPS. I'm looking for variety in optimal setups.

Lots of people like to say "Oh, BLM's do great damage when they don't have mechanics". Yet, when there are no mechanics, a Melee is still better.

Also, regarding Virus, you don't aim to keep "maximum" uptime due to the Antibody debuff; you generally save it for specific mechanics.

[pandabearcat]

Ravana punishes melee pretty heavily, and SMN's split add aoe is phenomenal.

I haven't seen this "melee are better than casters at everything" mentality. My static runs 2xcaster 1xmelee 1xbard and the casters are always top dps. Again this is anecdotally, but casters being sat is pretty unsupported as well in the large scheme of things.

Just like you cannot say blm are good in a patchwerk scenario you cannot say that playing a melee optimally is always going to happen. I severely doubt that the majority of melee dps can do great dps consistently, esp during progression when people are still learning fights. Maybe you've got the best melee on the server, idk, but with bosses spinning around and disconnects, melee are much harder to play well than a blm even on movement fights.

This idea that casters will be sat is pretty out there.

Why would SMN bringing a caster buff make you want to bring more casters? It would simply make you want to bring a SMN rather than a BLM. And that is not an issue we have right now. If you really think casters are worse off than melee why not just buff all magic damage? You don't need a hamhanded buff to do that, esp not one that requires no additional thought to place.

[Koyuki38]

Melee are better on dummy because their maximal output is better (i guess..)

[Jikillia]

snip

First Arcanist's virus+fever has 90 second cooldown with virus immunity buff on target for 60 seconds, which leaves 30 seconds and that is HUGE gap between them. Having extra set ot virus isn't bad idea at all. For 'using it for specific mechanics' if you can hamper boss's damage more frequently, the better. It may not be the reason to bring SMN all the time, but utility is there to help and should never be a mandatory to make it through the fight.

Secondly current damage increase buff, except for NIN's trick attack, don't stack. Slashing debuff never stack and piercing and blunt can be applied only by a single class. Magic vulnerability can be applied by BRD. Only MCH can apply stacking debuff

Lastly casters don't have positional requirement and have range. Sure BLM can deal a lot of damage and melee will deal more with ease if there are no mechanics, but compare to melee, BLM does have fewer mechanics to worry about: i.e: cleave

[HaroldSaxon]

First Arcanist's virus+fever has 90 second cooldown with virus immunity buff on target for 60 seconds, which leaves 30 seconds and that is HUGE gap between them. Having extra set ot virus isn't bad idea at all. For 'using it for specific mechanics' if you can hamper boss's damage more frequently, the better. It may not be the reason to bring SMN all the time, but utility is there to help and should never be a mandatory to make it through the fight.

Most bosses do Physical damage, with "large" raid wide damage being magical. Any class with the non-traited version can be used for filler as you described. However, there are a number of times in progression when you need the enhanced virus on for a specific attack (e.g. Terraflare).

Secondly current damage increase buff, except for NIN's trick attack, don't stack. Slashing debuff never stack and piercing and blunt can be applied only by a single class. Magic vulnerability can be applied by BRD. Only MCH can apply stacking debuff

I never said they stacked. I said if you have two Monks, you have one with dragon kick (standard rotation), and the other using bootshine which is a DPS increase for that second bard.

Lastly casters don't have positional requirement and have range. Sure BLM can deal a lot of damage and melee will deal more with ease if there are no mechanics, but compare to melee, BLM does have fewer mechanics to worry about: i.e: cleave

Yet Casters have a long cast time and movement not only interrupts the cast meaning 0 damage, but in BLM's case means they will lose damage on future casts (due to having to recast F1 early, and losing a second F4 due to the increased mana cost of F1). Switching a flank and losing a potency bonus is more DPS than cancelling a cast which is 0 DPS. And if you are getting hit by cleaves, then you made the mistake because you shouldn't be getting hit by them.

[Aikaal]

Did I heard an argument about Super Virus optimization?

How about putting Apoc with Super Virus! Or that Ast Disable with Smn Super Virus, that's trully optimal. 99.8% of the times, the Summoner "Super" Virus is used for melee damage only. I don't know a single fight where double Super Virus was needed! Please help my stupid BLM brain SMNs. Double Super Virus is not optimal at all. Was there a single 2.x guide video that mentioned Double Super Virus is needed? I know maybe only one possibility and it was Savage T7 progression with Prosector + Melusine.

[Jikillia]

Sorry on dmg debuff stacking part. My misunderstanding. However still, one of the big point with BRD is (and soon MCH) is the Foe. If SMN gets something similar to Foe, BRD/MCH may see decline - of course pure assumption.

With caster there is a trick like stutter stepping to minimize the movement. I don't think I'm the only one when I say mastering caster involved making sure you move as little as possible to cast as much as possible. Which means, it IS possible for a caster to deal more overall dmg by minimizing movement compare to melee. Not specifically saying one is better than the other, but positional disadvantage is not avoidable through trick. That is the disadvantage in bringing more melee.

Also the distinct differences with melee and range is melee requiring travel time. So even if caster has to cancel, not stutter stepping, if the mechanic involves changing target in different places. However, I cannot discuss this further because we don't know the new raid will bring.

[Jikillia]

snip

It was merely an idea. I was trying to make a point that double virus is not bad. Given how we have no idea how fight is going to be, I don't think any claims can be made. Who knows? We might get a boss fight where we fight 2 bosses at the same time.

[HaroldSaxon]

Sorry on dmg debuff stacking part. My misunderstanding. However still, one of the big point with BRD is (and soon MCH) is the Foe. If SMN gets something similar to Foe, BRD/MCH may see decline - of course pure assumption.

With caster there is a trick like stutter stepping to minimize the movement. I don't think I'm the only one when I say mastering caster involved making sure you move as little as possible to cast as much as possible. Which means, it IS possible for a caster to deal more overall dmg by minimizing movement compare to melee. Not specifically saying one is better than the other, but positional disadvantage is not avoidable through trick. That is the disadvantage in bringing more melee.

Also the distinct differences with melee and range is melee requiring travel time. So even if caster has to cancel, not stutter stepping, if the mechanic involves changing target in different places. However, I cannot discuss this further because we don't know the new raid will bring.

And neither Foe's or MCH's buffs are 100% uptime. Dragon Kick and Disembowel are.

You won't see BRD/MCH decline because of their MP and TP restore abilities.

I do know how to stutter step and I know how to play BLM. But good luck getting decent gains out of it on a 3 second cast time, and does stutter stepping increase your astral fire timer? Or your enochian timer? Or your F1 mana costs? Of course not.

It is also possible for the Melee to just stay on the boss and let the other DPS get the adds - such as T12 and T13.

I just find it funny that you are trying to argue that having a slight potency loss on one attack is worse than having 0 potency on one attack, and a potency loss on further attacks due to having to use Fire 1 early. Its not even close to being worse on the melee. Whenever a caster can minimize movement, so can a Melee.

[Jikillia]

Not that I disagree but I just wanted to point out that melee needs to deal with more mechanics to optimize their dps. Say Chimera in cutter cry, blue in, violet out, eye fixed = run-for-your-life are the basic mechanic. Let's say BLM and MNK have same level of understanding. BLM can use things like swiftcast, aetherial manipulation and so on to minimize dps loss. MNK has to move out of point-blank aoe and has to kite chasing orb around. Not that BLM will have any less to deal with, but due to the fact that BLM is ranged, he has EASIER time with the mechanic.

I'm not saying one is better than the other. I do not play melee as much as I play caster so I'm not fitted to make any judgement. If I sounded like I did, I'm sorry. That's my poor language.

I may have side-tracked as I was lost in thought but my underline 'argument' is that melee gets to deal with more 'cannot do damage' possibilities than ranged be it BLM or SMN. Although I do believe BLM needs some tweak with its timer.