o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

[Ramsey]

It was neither difficult nor particularly enjoyable, but the over-complexity and unwieldiness of the system could have been solved without removing the unique nature of crafting system. The depth of the various items in the games and their interconnection and inter-workings.

That being said, the same thing happened with the battle system. The deep, non-class approach that they half-committed to early on is being swept under the carpet in favor of compartmentalized class system. Easier to balance.

I for one won't argue that the crafting system didn't need work. But easier inventory management, better mass production, better item storage, more actual gameplay in crafting, these are the things I want. I don't want to lose the depth and unique nature of the crafting system. Hell I know more about metallurgy and tanning than I did going into this game, and that has to say something.

[Amineri]

So, why are we revamping HQ items and synths?

I don't understand.

It works fine as it is now....

I'm not saying that agree fully with these changes. It's difficult to form an opinion with so many things still unknown. There are many aspects of the proposed system that make me feel uneasy, but how they work out depends upon how other systems end up working. However, SE has posted up the info early, and so they are asking us for feedback now, so here it is!

One issue with the HQ items and synths that I have not see people bringing up is the following:

The current HQ system devalues HQ materials, and hence devalues any contribution made by gatherers.

Think about it. If you want to make a piece of HQ [item=10002062]Iron Chain[/item], the following steps are needed:

Iron Ore ~> Iron Nuggets ~> Iron Ingots ~> Iron Wire ~> Iron Rings ~> Iron Chain ~> [final item]

The weak correlation at each step between quality of ingredients and probability of HQ results in the usage of HQ material in the first step having nearly zero effect in the likelihood of HQ at the Iron Chain stage. Instead, crafters play the repetition game, repeating the same synth over and over attempting end up with an HQ result.

This results in the HQ material gathered by gatherers being essentially valueless, which is not a fair or well-balanced situation. I can see this system possibly improving that situation. Will it make everything perfect in terms of crafter/gatherer balance? No. But, I can see the possibility of improvement.

Regarding the "automatic final item HQ". In one sense this is not as drastic a step as people seem to be implying. The ability to 'touch up' only on final item synths that we have now was already a step in this direction. If a crafter had enough HQ ingredients, getting an HQ result was nearly guaranteed now. Whether it would be +1/2/3 was largely a matter of luck rather than of any sort of crafter skill.

The current final item synth process DOES however encourage players to skip making HQ version of certain ingredients. For example, when making an Iron Halberd, the Iron Halberd Head steps go:

Iron Ore ~> Iron Nuggets ~> Iron Ingots ~> Iron Halberd Head ~> Iron Halberd

The issue here is that it takes FOUR Iron ingots to make an Iron Halberd Head, and is a rank 44 (appr.) BSM recipe. Also, the Iron Halberd Head is only a r25 part, meaning that it does not contribute a very high weight to the starting quality of the synthesis.

In the end, most crafters end up using a few NQ ingredients (those that have a very long chain, such as above). The proposed system does increase the 'challenge' of making an HQ item slightly in that now every part must be HQed. There won't be anymore cutting corners and getting by with a few NQ ingredients.

The flip side to this is that HQ ingredients will now be made in a single step, thus (potentially) making them easier to make. Now Iron Ingots will be made directly from Iron Ore. However, since materials have never been able to be touched up, making HQ materials has always been more difficult then making an HQ finished item. However, I would suggest that the difficulty of turning raw materials into HQ ingredients be increased.

[darkstarpoet1]

@Amineri you may want to use a better example than iron chain since no crafter i know has ever attempted to hq this item since it is a mob drop that drops +3.

the automatic hq is horrible. to claim it is not drastic is fooling yourself. what was the complaint that was had before these changes were brought up? all you do is standard bash. what do you think people are going to do for finished items now? they are going to standard bash the finished products. the only thing people liked during the whole process was the making of finished gear because it was the only time in which you used abilities to increase quality.

i'm not sure what you mean by most crafters use nq items. we use nq items when the item is low level or just do not care whether it is nq or not. anytime i ever made any high level gear i always used all hq mats and so did every other crafter i know.

in the end, getting hq parts does not make up for using of abilities and trying to get higher quality during the synth. that is what crafters enjoyed. the standard bashing was not.

how does getting a r20 hq ingot as a r50 blacksmith make up for trying to get a hq aeolian scimitar? even if it took 50 tries to get 1 hq ingot that's one step towards a sure hq finished item. it's alot easier to get ore to get the hq parts than it was to get the drop off the nm so it makes the whole process easier.

[Amineri]

@Amineri you may want to use a better example than iron chain since no crafter i know has ever attempted to hq this item since it is a mob drop that drops +3.

I agree, no sane crafter would try and make a +3 Iron Chain via crafting. The fact that it is so horrendous that people go farm undead instead merely points out the flaws in the crafting system.

My second example of the [item=10300007]Iron Halberd Head[/item] may be more suitable to your tastes. The likelihood of getting +3 Iron Nuggets from +3 Iron Ore is MAYBE 5%. The likelihood of getting a +3 Iron Ingot from +3 Iron Nuggets is MAYBE 5%. Convolving these probabilities together results in a 0.25% chance of getting a +3 Iron Ingot utilizing Iron Ore +3. The Iron Halberd Head synth is a rank 44 BSM recipe, so perhaps 100 Q could be gained during synthesis. It also used FOUR iron ingots per synthesis. If the likelihood of getting a +3 Iron Halberd Head from +3 Iron Ingots is also 5%, well, here is where it gets tricky.

To make 1 +3 Iron Ingot, an expected 167 Iron Nuggets synths from +3 Iron Ore are needed (167 synths results in about 8.3 +3 results, each generating 12 nuggets, for about 100 +3 Iron Nuggets. These 100 +3 Iron Nuggets are enough for 20 Iron Ingot synths, with a +3 Iron Ingot rate of 5%, result in ... one).

So, to get FOUR +3 Iron Ingots, a total of 668 Iron Nugget synths would be expected. That gives ONE attempt at an Iron Halberd Head with +3 materials. If this synthesis is 5% likely to generate a +3 Iron Halberd Head, then we must perform this entire operation 20 times.

To get an expected ONE +3 Iron Halberd Head, a total of 13,360 Iron Nugget synths would be required. The +3 Iron Ore required would be 53,440. Assuming 1 minute per synthesis, it would take over nine days of continuing synthesis to complete 13,360 Iron Nuggets Synths.

Clearly, people don't do this. What this points out is that the link between HQ gathered mats and HQ finished products is so weak as to render HQ materials ineffective in many cases (but not all).

the automatic hq is horrible. to claim it is not drastic is fooling yourself. what was the complaint that was had before these changes were brought up? all you do is standard bash. what do you think people are going to do for finished items now? they are going to standard bash the finished products. the only thing people liked during the whole process was the making of finished gear because it was the only time in which you used abilities to increase quality.

The "standard button mash" needn't be the case. If you recall back to closed-beta days, the use of HQ materials resulted in an increased starting quality (as now), but that increased quality made the synthesis difficulty go up. I don't know if SE has this on their mind, but using HQ materials should result in the synthesis being harder to complete. Thus crafting skills and crafting judgement should be used to make the synthesis successful. I suggest that SE abolish the increased starting durability for using HQ mats (thus we'd always start at 100 Dura), and re-instate the formula for increasing synth difficulty based on a quality of 300, as it was in closed beta.

This would be the risk vs reward. A difficult-to-complete synthesis, but if you succeed, you are guaranteed the HQ result. The risk is the loss of all of your HQ ingredients.

i'm not sure what you mean by most crafters use nq items. we use nq items when the item is low level or just do not care whether it is nq or not. anytime i ever made any high level gear i always used all hq mats and so did every other crafter i know.

Sure, here's an example : [item=7010009]Iron Dolabra[/item]
To make the [item=10302115]Ash Pickaxe Shaft[/item] is a rank 5 CRP synth. No one is going to go through the trouble of buying HQ flax or HQ Ash Logs in order to make this. No, it's pick up NQ Ash Lumber and NQ Linseed Oil, hit careful synth a lot, use Clean Slate as much as possible, and let repetition take the place of HQ gathered materials.

Another example, the [item=10002022]Iron Plate[/item]. No one uses HQ Iron Ore to make HQ Iron Nuggets to make HQ Iron Ingots in an attempt to make an HQ Iron Plate. No, NQ Iron ingots are used, with the same repetition of careful synth, Clean Slate, etc.

[item=10303110]Iron Axe Butt[/item], same situation.

I'm not saying that people don't try and achieve HQ results for the ingredients used directly in the final synth. I'm saying that HQ gathered materials are not used / useful in creating these, and THAT is disenfranchising the gatherer community.

in the end, getting hq parts does not make up for using of abilities and trying to get higher quality during the synth. that is what crafters enjoyed. the standard bashing was not.

how does getting a r20 hq ingot as a r50 blacksmith make up for trying to get a hq aeolian scimitar? even if it took 50 tries to get 1 hq ingot that's one step towards a sure hq finished item. it's alot easier to get ore to get the hq parts than it was to get the drop off the nm so it makes the whole process easier.

I agree 100%, standard bashing isn't fun. Most of the 'standard bashing' I've done is while grinding, however, not while making thing destined for finished products.

I can see your point in that making an 'automatic HQ' does make crafting less fun for the crafters. In part this is necessary (I believe) in order to balance out the crafter / gatherer dynamic. In order to make HQ gathered materials matter, the system has to be changed in order to make those HQ gathered materials have a noticeable impact on the likelihood of HQ final result. The net result is the final result is less dependent on the crafter, and more shared between the crafter and gatherer.

And really, the only way to make the HQ gathered materials matter more is to shift more of the dynamic to the point at which the ingredients are made from the HQ gathered materials.

To re-iterate:
1) Making HQ ingredients easier to make with HQ gathered mats does not require that making HQ ingredients by "easy". It needn't be comparable to the current difficulty. With the shortening of the synthesis chain (e.g. ore~>nugget~>ingot~>wire~>chain), the difficulty / probability of making an HQ ingredient SHOULD be increased, compared with the current state.

2) Making an HQ finish item be 100% deterministic based on using HQ materials needn't result in a "standard button mash". Under the current system, starting quality does not increase synthesis difficulty. Since quality will not be a factor in the proposed system, the synthesis difficulty should be increased. The focus of difficulty would shift from "maximizing quality gain while keeping as much durability as possible" to "finishing the synthesis at all".

Finally, let me point out that, with the materia system being added, HQ items will not be the "end-all be-all" of the crafting process. HQ items with materia slotted will overtake that role. In light of this, an increase in the number of HQ items produced is reasonable. Yoshi-P has stated that dual-slotting materia into an HQ item will be much harder then doing the same for an NQ item. Thus, many of the HQ items produced will be lost while attempting to dual-slot in materia. Getting the HQ item will be shifting from the end goal, to another step in the chain to create the "ultimate item".

[MariyaShidou]

Amineri, the "all HQ ingredient only" part can jeopardise the Inventory as well. Because if you are missing one ingredient, no one in sane mind will go ahead crafting. The HQ ingredient will stay in Inv until you get to collect that missing piece, and if you have several different HQ ingredient for various recipe but missing pieces, they can quickly stockpiling up. With the current system, at least you are free to try with missing pieces HQ, because you still have a chance to get HQ, you don't really waste the remaining HQ ingredient.

[Amineri]

Amineri, the "all HQ ingredient only" part can jeopardise the Inventory as well. Because if you are missing one ingredient, no one in sane mind will go ahead crafting. The HQ ingredient will stay in Inv until you get to collect that missing piece, and if you have several different HQ ingredient for various recipe but missing pieces, they can quickly stockpiling up. With the current system, at least you are free to try with missing pieces HQ, because you still have a chance to get HQ, you don't really waste the remaining HQ ingredient.

This is a very good point, Mariya. I hadn't though it out in that direction yet.

A possible compromise that occurs to me is to allow the synthesis with a mix of NQ / HQ ingredients, with a simple probability of an HQ item based on the weighted average of the ingredient level (basically the same as how starting quality is computed now). This would allow a crafter to use up HQ ingredients with a chance to get an HQ result, but without the guarantee.

One thing that bothers me about this compromise is that it could open up a few exploits. If one particular HQ ingredient is particularly easy to obtain, it could result in the shift again to combining that one HQ ingredient with NQ ingredients and repeating until the HQ finish item pops out. There may be other possible exploits, so I'm kind of on the fence about it.

On the other hand, since materials will be used more in common across multiple recipes, presumably demand for HQ ingredients will be higher then it is now (since they can guarantee an HQ final result, an HQ ingredient under the proposed system will have much more value). With a functioning economy, you could buy HQ ingredients that you need, or sell excess HQ ingredients that you do not have room for. Ideally these items will be bought and sold, but with the market system as it is now, it remains to be seen if this will pan out. Particular with the "seek item" feature still ineffective ...

[HiirNoivl]

Amineri, the "all HQ ingredient only" part can jeopardise the Inventory as well. Because if you are missing one ingredient, no one in sane mind will go ahead crafting. The HQ ingredient will stay in Inv until you get to collect that missing piece, and if you have several different HQ ingredient for various recipe but missing pieces, they can quickly stockpiling up. With the current system, at least you are free to try with missing pieces HQ, because you still have a chance to get HQ, you don't really waste the remaining HQ ingredient.

No this is incorrect.

Right now HQ is everything. It's HQ or bust. If you don't have HQ, it's no good!

After this crafting changes are all in place HQ will not be the Be All End All of crafting. Materia crafting will give NQ some value. NQ gear can be converted into materia. NQ gear will be IMPORTANT for materia mass production. NQ gear attaches to materia more easily and materia can enhance NQ gear beyond the HQ level.

What people need to understand is that the crafting changes have a lot more than HQ in mind. That's why luck is being taken out of the final HQ synth, not to make it too easy, but to keep making HQ materia crafting completely impossible!

[MariyaShidou]

No this is incorrect.

Right now HQ is everything. It's HQ or bust. If you don't have HQ, it's no good!

That is actually the new system. Unless you have all HQ ingredient, it's bust. There is little point to have 7 out of 8 HQ but the 8th is NQ.

[Kyana]

So, can you still get HQ with NQ materials (luck and low chance) or is is going to be impossible to get HQ without all materials being HQ as well?

Also, HQ gear should not only have better defense, evasion,... but also better stats like increased control or gathering for example.
Right now HQ gear is not better than NQ gear for DoL and DoH. Only HQ tools make a difference.

The rest of the changes don't seem to bad. 100% chance for HQ items if you use HQ materials is nice because you can really work towards the desired gear. People can collect the needed materials through gathering or farming monsters and then have a crafter make their item.
This will also take out the need for the crafter to be at max rank to get a better chance at HQ.

I hope the new recipes will give crafters some more "rank up items" every 5-8 ranks.

[HiirNoivl]

That is actually the new system. Unless you have all HQ ingredient, it's bust. There is little point to have 7 out of 8 HQ but the 8th is NQ.

There is a point. But apparently that is not as getting as much attention. Yoshi clearly illustrated why someone might Opt for a NQ synth even if they had some HQ ingredients. 1) Not all HQ ingredients from from many sessions of crafting, they can drop from mobs or DoL nodes too. 2) HQing a synth may not be desireable depending on what materia you want to use on it. (when performing “The Forbidden Materia Craft (tentative title),” attaching materia to HQ weapons/armor will impact the success rate) 3) Apparently you get more materia from NQ gear than HQ gear. (NQ items will be useful when mass producing materia.)


Like Yoshi's said, "I will be careful with the balance, so that HQ items do not become a necessity!"