Estinien (spoilers)

[Kauthryn]

I'll admit, I'm not understanding why people believe they have a deeper understanding into the story by parroting what Hraes said about lifespans. Yes, we all are aware that dragons see 10,000 years ago as though it were yesterday, but we also understand that clearly they are capable of being reasonable when they choose to be. Midgardsormr, the oldest of all the dragons, is your companion despite knowing everything that he does. He even asks Tiamat when she will stop blaming herself for what became of her brother/lover, so I don't know -- maybe we can shelf the whole "it is wee human brain that prevent understanding of this intricate concept."

No.

Nidhogg is a villain because he became vengeance. You can't fault the elezen for not wanting to be eradicated by a genocidal maniac. Nidhogg was correct to kill Thordan and his knights, but after that? It's a blood feud and there is no moral correctness in that. Someone like Estinien, that was raised to hate dragons, nevertheless was forced to assess the error of his ways at a point. That doesn't mean he'd feel sorry for keeping his people from being killed.

[TheCount]

--snip because stupid character limit--

Exactly this.

[Dalvy]

I still think Estinien is still in there. The transformed dragons we fight in Snowcloak and in the MSQ appear to retain knowledge of their former selves. Plus, Nidhogg himself stated that Estinien resisted for so long, even after succumbing briefly to rage when fighting the WoL. That his "moment of weakness " was relief rather than rage makes me think that we are not done with him yet.

[Jonnycbad]

It'll be like Lillisette's fusion with Lady Lillith or Lion's disappearance. He will probably be saved. It's only 3.0...we may have story arcs all the way up to 3.55. I don't think Estinien is down for the count just yet.

[Allyrion]

I'll admit, I'm not understanding why people believe they have a deeper understanding into the story by parroting what Hraes said about lifespans. Yes, we all are aware that dragons see 10,000 years ago as though it were yesterday, but we also understand that clearly they are capable of being reasonable when they choose to be. Midgardsormr, the oldest of all the dragons, is your companion despite knowing everything that he does. He even asks Tiamat when she will stop blaming herself for what became of her brother/lover, so I don't know -- maybe we can shelf the whole "it is wee human brain that prevent understanding of this intricate concept."

I think one of the issues with the dragons is that it's never mentioned that the whole difference of perception works both ways.

Because of their lifespan, they cannot comprehend how far and away the past grievance is to to the humans.
Perhaps we don't understand how raw their betrayal feels, but they clearly don't understand how many generations have past, since that first offense.

And I think Midgardsormr gives us some perspective, as you mentioned.
What I'm getting from their whole "time is different for us" deal is that they're actually not as old as we would believe.
They're a bunch of emotional teenagers.

I don't blame Hraesvalgr though.
He didn't raise a hand against Ishgard himself, but giving Nidhogg an Eye was at least something to do for his sister.
He lost his sister, he wasn't going to convince Nidhogg to do anything else but if he didn't give Nidhogg his eye, he would lose his brother as well.
Also, I'm pretty sure he gave it out of guilt. His love for Shiva lead the dragons to trust the humans only to be betrayed.

[Cilia]

^
You might have a point there on the Celestial Dragons being emotionally immature.

Still, I totally blame Hraesvelgr for the war. He knew all along that Nidhogg would swear vengeance and perpetuate an endless war, and chose to help him anyway. Saving Nidhogg's life is understandable, but he had a millennium to try and stop him from perpetuating a war that serves no purpose but to make the Ishgardians suffer and could have chosen not to save Nidhogg. Even if he never personally became violent against Ishgard and only helped Nidhogg out of guilt, he's still indirectly responsible for every death of the war.

I don't absolve people of sin under the grounds that "Yeah, well, your people killed my sister and drove my brother insane, so it's totally OK that you all suffered for a thousand years! Hell if I didn't have my soulmate bound to me, I'd be right there killing you all too, and would even kill you guys right now!"

[Allyrion]

My point is, he saved his brother and he had no place to stick his neck out for the mortals after that betrayal.
I know he said that stuff about Shiva, but I think that's part of who he is as well.
I'm not saying he has no responsibility, but I can't fault him for saving Nidhogg or for wiping his hands clean of the whole affair afterwards.

It's not like it had to be a perpetual war anyway. It's only because Ishgard wasn't able to kill Nidhogg again without the PC and Estinien.
After he saved Nidhogg it was Ishgard's problem after that, and he was done. That seems reasonable to me.

He clearly didn't defend Nidhogg either, he was fine with him dying. He was fine with Ishgard dying.
I think he had that right to remove himself from the affair.

At the end of the day, he helped the humans gain their power to kill his own sister by having the dragons trust them.
Then he gives his eye to Nidhogg to balance his contribution to the sides.
If anything he gave the humans more because he indirectly gave them 2 dragon eyes and only gave Nidhogg one.
Then he steps out of the whole thing.


It only happened that Nidhogg was able to prolong the war as long as he did.
It was up to someone else to stop him, and they didn't have that until the PC and Estinien.

So yea, I don't really blame him.
He did enough for both sides.

[Cilia]

^
Every death, man and dragon alike.

As it stands Hraesvelgr was the only one capable of stopping Nidhogg (except perhaps Midgardsormr, but who knows what in the seven hells he was doing back then), but chose to save Nidhogg and then do nothing. In other words he was totally complicit in Nidhogg's endless war for vengeance, he just didn't raise a hand to help either side because of Shiva's influence. Regardless, he condemned countless numbers of his kin along with countless men to die in the Dragonsong War, and is indirectly responsible for it; ending it should have been his responsibility, not ours, and yet we trudge through blood and darkness to fix his mistakes. Counting both sides the death toll is likely somewhere in the millions, and he absolves himself by saying "time is different for dragons" and "your ancestors killed my sister and drove my brother insane, so I don't wanna hear it!"

That's about as weak a defense as Thrall's "You chose your own destiny" he used to absolve himself of indirect responsibility for Garrosh's actions in WoW.

Could it have been ended before the Warrior of Light and Estinien finished Nidhogg off? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Nidhogg did, after all, rest in the Aery, high up in the Churning Mists where men haven't been since the Dragonsong War began, and even running on half of Hraesvelgr's borrowed power Estinien notes Nidhogg could have razed Ishgard if he so chose.

[Allyrion]

Well, I blame him for Nidhogg's actions as much as I blame him for the death of Ratatoskr.
Giving his eye and saving his brother was only fair due after he brought them to that situation.

I agree he plays a big part in the whole thing. He's basically responsible for the war and for the death of his sister.
He made his mistakes and he paid for it. He lost his sister and he lost his eye.

There's a point though, where you aren't liable for the people around you.
If this really feels like all this happened yesterday to the dragons, I don't think it would've reached a point for Hraesvalgr to think about acting to stop Nidhogg.

This isn't like Thrall because everyone involved knew what they were doing.
Thrall made Garrosh into what he was. Hraesvalgr did not make Nidhogg into what he was, he just allowed him to live.

I think he is responsible, in a big way, but for the death of his own sister.
But I think trusting the humans was for a good reason.
Similarly, I think he is responsible for the Dragonsong War.
But I think saving his brother and sticking up for his own was fair and due.

He paid heavily for both.
So again, not really like Thrall who gives Garrosh the reins, then goes off and becomes World Shaman and has a happy life with wife and kids.
Then comes back and doesn't take responsibility.

His actions led to the original betrayal.
He is as much responsible for King Thordan's actions as Nidhogg's.
Him giving Nidhogg his eye was taking responsibility.


So I think he's the center point of the events.
He did enough to add to the pain, first by causing the death of his sister and then by giving Nidhogg his eye, so his brother could live.
I don't generally agree with the dragon-time thing, but if that really was yesterday to him I think he might need a few more days to get over it and fix everything.
If his sister died yesterday to him, it's not like he's should be the one saying to not war with the humans again.
That's what caused this mess in the first place. He has no right to say that or act on that after what happened.

I would think less of him if he did.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

I see it as Bystander Syndrome, which means that Hraesvelgr could have done something, but chose to sit on the fence when it came to the war itself. What I got from him was "I don't really care for man, but I'm not going to do anything about it because I really loved Shiva".


For a dragon, he really sounds wishy washy; he wants to make man suffer, but he doesn't want to assist Nidhogg (other than the eye) because Shiva reminds him of the good man had.