Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

[Velhart]

Considering they already said whatever level your class is when it's unlocked = the level of the job, it's pretty much not like a class tree in that regard.

Yea, what I meant was it works as a "Specialization" type system. Like Retribution or Holy is a spec on Paladin in WoW.

Same way with this, as CON, you have Black Mage or White Mage spec, SE is just calling it JOBs.

[Chiz]

Ya, the fact that, with "6 'sub' jobs," as you call them, people no longer have the option to play the way they want. They are, practically, FORCED to level every job.

Huh? Quite the contrary, the Armoury System gives you the option to play exactly how you like, but that doesn't mean it doesn't continue to reward you for leveling up and unlocking abilities that build your character along the way. If you can get by with being a 1-trick pony and get the job done with one R50 class "the way you want to play" that's great, but that doesn't mean you couldn't do it better if you enriched your playstyle with supplemental abilities. But isn't that the point of it, to give you the choice and options to play how you like?

Have you tried getting through a behest (at the recommended rank) WITHOUT having a cure spell assigned to your DD *MELEE* job? I had to do it on my brother's character because he hates leveling mages. Wanna know what happens? You die...at least once. So, unless you treat the behest like some of the worst aspects of XI (having to kite and run from monsters to beat them, constantly), you're pretty much condemned to a life of endless hp returns -or always party w/ ppl for everything. That sounds like a spectacular idea, doesn't it!

This argument makes no sense at all coming from someone who wants more restrictive gameplay options with a Job system over our current Armoury System. What would you do in the same Behest if you were on a Job that couldn't heal? Pop Invincible on your PLD for the full 5 minutes? No, you'd still die without someone healing you. At least the Armoury System gives those willing to put the 75 seconds to get R4 on THM or CON an option to heal themselves and "play the way they want to play."

If anything, Jobs will emphasize group play further so you will become even more reliant on someone else healing you in a party. The Armoury System on the other hand gives you the option to be more self-sufficient and flexible in both solo and group scenarios.

With a restricted number of sub jobs, SE would have a much less complex system to manage and maintain. This means that the likelihood of an Rank 25 Archer actually being able to enjoy the game without using his...mp? -would drastically increase.

Again, it sounds like you just don't want to take full advantage of the tools available to you with the Armoury System and instead prefer to restrict yourself to some myopic vision of how a class or archetype should be played. There's nothing wrong with that, there's just always going to be someone doing it better than you because they were willing to innovate and try something different. But that's what its all about isn't it? Allowing people the option to "play the way they want to play" instead of being a cookie-cutter mold of everyone else on the same job/class.

[Chiz]

I wouldn't mind the current plan OR the OP's idea. Both are cool. The thing that really bothers me is the whole "Cross-class Abilities". That is just bulls**t! Healing should be FOR HEALERS. Or at least only for a damn casting class I mean C'MON! And I'm sure many of you like it.. But for me this is one thing I really can't stand about the classes/skill system. Makes my char/class feel so much less unique... Like you're working for nothing. Like you have no class identity, as Yoshida would say.

Its really not that far of a stretch for both a melee or tank type character to be a competent supplementary healer. PLD in XI was in this mold, as was Paladin in WoW. You can go as far back as Clerics in AD&D which were both heavy-plate DD AND main healers. Even in more contemporary Hack N Slash RPG titles like Diablo or Titan Quest, melee DD get a variety of abilities or weapon stats that allow them to heal or leech and recover HP. Point is, archetypes are only as restrictive as the restrictions placed upon them. In the case of XIV, those restrictions only go as far as your imagination and willingness to level other classes to supplement your character. If you don't want to take full advantage of the abilities laid out before you that's fine, but please don't advocate taking away those abilities when it will only result in a worst gameplay experience and fewer choices overall.

[Khal_Drogo]

Huh? Quite the contrary, the Armoury System gives you the option to play exactly how you like, but that doesn't mean it doesn't continue to reward you for leveling up and unlocking abilities that build your character along the way...This argument makes no sense at all coming from someone who wants more restrictive gameplay options with a Job system over our current Armoury System. What would you do in the same Behest if you were on a Job that couldn't heal? Pop Invincible on your PLD for the full 5 minutes? No, you'd still die without someone healing you. At least the Armoury System gives those willing to put the 75 seconds to get R4 on THM or CON an option to heal themselves and "play the way they want to play." If anything, Jobs will emphasize group play further so you will become even more reliant on someone else healing you in a party. The Armoury System on the other hand gives you the option to be more self-sufficient and flexible in both solo and group scenarios.


Again, it sounds like you just don't want to take full advantage of the tools available to you with the Armoury System and instead prefer to restrict yourself to some myopic vision of how a class or archetype should be played.

I can't believe you consider any of that, nonsense, logical deduction. Why don't you try considering the *source of the problems that can arise when you're not "curing yourself." The current classes are all GIMP versions of what they could be as a dedicated role. It's BECAUSE we have so many ways to "beef" up our classes w/ cures and tp cures and defensive abs, and so on, that SE won't *allow* them to be good *jobs. So, instead of being an incredibly destructive melee, that has no need for a cure because his wpn completely and utterly decimates it's opposition, we're forced to whittle away at a monsters hp, one insignificant hit at a time, while desperately trying to cure ourselves with the stupid cures attained through our "flexible" class system (ya right...), and they intend for us to do it w/ gimp MP as well.

Solution: "Beef up destructive power, so that melee's don't *have to equip cures if they don't want to" -is that your response? Someone else mentioned, before, that the current system is basically like XI's job system for melee because the mp we have as non-DoM is nearly as pathetic as having a mage job as a sub on a melee -brilliant deduction. However, no matter how insignificant the "assistance" that the mp can offer a class, it will always make it *more* effective than the other ppl who just don't want to be a healer AT ALL, and don't want to have to cure themselves. And again, it forces ppl "out of the loop" b/c no one will want a DD who keeps dying b/c he can never get "more hp, once he's lost it." SE needs to focus on making classes *better at what they do. It's one thing to have DoW draw from the benefits of other DoW classes, but to let cures, and buffs and all this other nonsense leak in as well, is just retarded.

You wanna know what jobs bring to the table? BALANCE -I could go on, but I've proven my point well enough... Next time, "Think before you speak."

[Chiz]

I think it is funny that we're all talking about being able to "specialize" how we see fit. I have never seen such a generic set up of abilities. For example, we all set protect, shell, cure, sac, raise, second wind, voke, defender, shockspikes, siphon MP, stoneskin and some buffs like Raging Strike. Every person I have played with has this generic set up. All our stats are pointless, since they make no difference right now, not a substantial one at least, it doesn't matter that we can allot them as we see fit. There is no difference in races, we're all the pretty much the same. I am not seeing how this armory system is creating individuality. I do not know if a job system will fix it or not but I know right now I see less variety than I ever did in XI. I guess what I am saying is, the class system is not the best idea SE has had for character advancement.

This used to be the case somewhat prior to 1.18 but one simple change with the removal of the Stamina bar, along with the increase in MP cost for heals changed all of this. The Stamina bar removal was the biggest change because most abilities from other classes just weren't used often due to the fact most people were usually in a Stamina-deficit while building TP with attacks and WS'ing. The new system with no Stamina concern changes all of this and rewards you instead for popping abilities on CD as much as possible.

The cost of MP change has also forced players, particularly melee-types, to rethink their survival strategies. You can't just spam C3 or S3 endlessly as a GLA anymore to keep yourself up and hold hate, you really have to save those for when it counts. But you have other options like Featherfoot, Foresight, Decoy, Diversion, Second Wind, Defender etc. to help keep you alive and reduce damage taken. All of these abilities except for maybe Decoy/Diversion can be obtained quickly at a relatively low level, so if you want to tank there's really no reason not to have them.

Anyways, point is that a few changes to specific abilities or gameplay mechanics can have a profound impact on defining class-roles and capabilities. These are the kinds of tweaks I would advocate in an effort to fix the current system rather than the much ado about nothing approach the dev team is currently taking. I hope I'm wrong, but I think we're just going to end up with a more restrictive, less enjoyable class/job system in lieu of 6-8 months the dev team could've been working to produce actual content for the current Class system.

[Chiz]

I can't believe you consider any of that, nonsense, logical deduction. Why don't you try considering the *source of the problems that can arise when you're not "curing yourself." The current classes are all GIMP versions of what they could be as a dedicated role. It's BECAUSE we have so many ways to "beef" up our classes w/ cures and tp cures and defensive abs, and so on, that SE won't *allow* them to be good *jobs. So, instead of being an incredibly destructive melee, that has no need for a cure because his wpn completely and utterly decimates it's opposition, we're forced to whittle away at a monsters hp, one insignificant hit at a time, while desperately trying to cure ourselves with the stupid cures attained through our "flexible" class system (ya right...), and they intend for us to do it w/ gimp MP as well.

Yes it is a logical deconstruction of the logical fallacies presented in your example. Fact of the matter is, Jobs will NOT solve any of your complaints, they will only exacerbate them. If you don't want to heal yourself, you are going to be even more reliant on other people to heal you. At least with the Armoury System, those willing to heal themselves have the option, and for many that is a BETTER option than NO option. How is this hard to understand?

As for being gimp versions of what they could be lol...I think the only people with this complaint are the ones who don't bother to enlighten themselves by taking the time to level and obtain additional supplemental abilities from other classes. I don't think you will see any good DDs complain about the damage from 3xMultishot/Chaos Thrust/Maim/Victimize fully buffed with Raging Strike + Ferocity + Blindside + Cadence stacked on the back-end of a BR. Realistically you only need a few of those buffs at once to maximize your cooldowns but you should get the point.

Solution: "Beef up destructive power, so that melee's don't *have to equip cures if they don't want to" -is that your response? Someone else mentioned, before, that the current system is basically like XI's job system for melee because the mp we have as non-DoW is nearly as pathetic as having a mage job as a sub on a melee -brilliant deduction. However, no matter how insignificant the "assistance" that the mp can offer a class, it will always make it *more* effective than the other ppl who just don't want to be a healer AT ALL, and don't want to have to cure themselves. And again, it forces ppl "out of the loop" b/c no one will want a DD who keeps dying b/c he can never get "more hp, once he's lost it." SE needs to focus on making classes *better at what they do. It's one thing to have DoW draw from the benefits of other DoW classes, but to let cures, and buffs and all this other nonsense leak in as well, is just retarded.

So your solution is going to be beef up damage to the point you can 1-shot every mob? Because otherwise, you will still run into the same problems you are whining about, you will need heals one way or another. The difference is, you have the CHOICE to heal yourself with the Armoury system where you have no choice with the strict archetype system you're advocating. What's more retarded? Advocating a change that does nothing to address your concerns? Or advocating the removal of a system already in place that at least gives people an option? Here's a hint, you're doing both atm.

You wanna know what jobs bring to the table? BALANCE -I could go on, but I've proven my point well enough... Next time, "Think before you speak."

Uh, please don't go on, but if you do, try "taking some of your own advice."

[TessaJalloh]

I can't believe you consider any of that, nonsense, logical deduction. Why don't you try considering the *source of the problems that can arise when you're not "curing yourself." The current classes are all GIMP versions of what they could be as a dedicated role. It's BECAUSE we have so many ways to "beef" up our classes w/ cures and tp cures and defensive abs, and so on, that SE won't *allow* them to be good *jobs. So, instead of being an incredibly destructive melee, that has no need for a cure because his wpn completely and utterly decimates it's opposition, we're forced to whittle away at a monsters hp, one insignificant hit at a time, while desperately trying to cure ourselves with the stupid cures attained through our "flexible" class system (ya right...), and they intend for us to do it w/ gimp MP as well.

Solution: "Beef up destructive power, so that melee's don't *have to equip cures if they don't want to" -is that your response? Someone else mentioned, before, that the current system is basically like XI's job system for melee because the mp we have as non-DoW is nearly as pathetic as having a mage job as a sub on a melee -brilliant deduction. However, no matter how insignificant the "assistance" that the mp can offer a class, it will always make it *more* effective than the other ppl who just don't want to be a healer AT ALL, and don't want to have to cure themselves. And again, it forces ppl "out of the loop" b/c no one will want a DD who keeps dying b/c he can never get "more hp, once he's lost it." SE needs to focus on making classes *better at what they do. It's one thing to have DoW draw from the benefits of other DoW classes, but to let cures, and buffs and all this other nonsense leak in as well, is just retarded.

You wanna know what jobs bring to the table? BALANCE -I could go on, but I've proven my point well enough... Next time, "Think before you speak."

ah, you must be new here, welcome to a Final Fantasy game.

[Arcell]

Not going to read all 177 posts (as of right now) but basically, that's a horrible idea.

Classes are for solo.

Jobs are for groups.

That is the intended structure of the coming system. If we had only jobs then you'd be completely screwing the people who level a bit here and there solo because they don't have the time to spend waiting around getting a group started.

I'll use myself as an example. I play in groups a lot for various things but in my downtime when I don't have a group or a lot of time I just grab some leves and level my Marauder solo. The flexibility of the class system affords me the survivability necessary to complete leves solo without too much trouble. With jobs I would not be able to do that as they fill a very specific role that generally doesn't lend itself to soloing.

Having the job system layered on top of the class system keeps both camps happy. Solo players have their flexible system with added survivability, group players have their highly defined roles that each bring something unique to the table.

[tbcivilian]

I like this current class system, but it does have more (a lot more) room for growth and diversity. I think it would be a very bad idea to go back to, or make some sort of spin-off of the old FFXI job system. Also, I think the reset timer for all leves should be lowered to lets say half of what it currently is now. Instead of 36 hour reset, how about 18 hours? Is that a good idea? Or, is the current timer settings satisfactory? Lastly, I hate it when you have to highlight your mob, then take out your weapon(or in reverse), and then lock-on with the C key. I love the auto-attack feature and the removal of the stamina system, but I wish that the Dev's would change the way you target a mob. I think it would be better if you highlight your mob and then when you press [enter] your character would fully lock-on right away, automatically take out his weapon, and then attack, of course, with the option to un-lock off of the mob with the C key at any time so that you can work on other mobs at the same time. One more thing, after the fight, you have the option to manually put away your weapon so that if there's still mobs around then you can move on right away and attack the next one. Would suck, big time, if your character would automatically put away his weapon after every fight lol! :P

[Khal_Drogo]

So your solution is going to be beef up damage to the point you can 1-shot every mob? Because otherwise, you will still run into the same problems you are whining about, you will need heals one way or another. The difference is, you have the CHOICE to heal yourself with the Armoury system where you have no choice with the strict archetype system you're advocating. What's more retarded? Advocating a change that does nothing to address your concerns? Or advocating the removal of a system already in place that at least gives people an option? Here's a hint, you're doing both atm.


Uh, please don't go on, but if you do, try "taking some of your own advice."

Um...once again you display a level of arrogance beyond human comprehension. I'm only choosing to post this section of your txt, because it's extremely dull reading the same stupid argument over and over and over again said in a different way, and I don't feel like going through each "assumption" and explaining why you were wrong. Did you even bother reading my suggestion? Maybe you did, but you lack imagination, so you can't see how to "fix" things w/o cure. Are you really so ignorant that you don't think SE is capable of coming up w/ innovative ways to keep classes soloing w/o "one-hitting every mob?" -By the way, that was a really unimaginative idea of the only possible way to survive w/o cures. Have you heard of the ability "Second Wind" by any chance? That's a PGL action. Have you, perhaps heard of MRD, and "Blood Bath?" And then, of course, we have "Speed Surge" and "Life Surge" on LNC; that's another interesting one. Well, LOOKY there -a couple of ways to survive w/o cure and 1-hitting mobs!? And here I thought we mere mortals were not capable of such impossible tasks!

Maybe you only lvl'd one DD, and lvl'd both the mages because you were too dense to understand that there are "other options" (just not as good of ones at this point); or maybe you forgot that they were there. Regardless of the reasons for it, your rant about how everything word uttered from your mouth, manifested on the forums is logical, now, just seems a little ridiculous. I don't know EXACTLY what needs to be done, but just because YOU can "get by" w/ the current system doesn't mean you dismiss other ppl's better ideas. I don't want to *settle. I want to get as close to "perfection" as possible.


Mages capitalize on mp and spells; and melees capitalize on TP and abilities. That's how it should be. SE could lower the recast time on things like Second Wind and Blood Bath, or they could increase the effectiveness of them, or come up w/ some kind of other stuff like "Rejuvenation" (focus your efforts on recovery, and regenerate hp over time) or "Adrenalin Rush" (Access your battle-will and recover health while dealing greater damage to target), or something...I'm just throwing random stuff out there. There's a lot they could do. I like DoW and DoM -I don't like pathetic hybrids. Keep them separate plz. I don't want to always feel like I'm a RDM in XI trying to solo easy prey mobs.