supervirus more impactful than proshell

[Ghishlain]

Well... WD is amazing, but to continue with the T13 example: Rouse + WD alone won't heal people up in time for Rage. Or in T12, it's uptime is not sufficient to heal through the p3 Flames of Rebirth spam (Although when it is up, it's very nice).

I really don't like HP/S as expressed by parsers because it doesn't represent things like that. (And using HoTs always makes the overheal counters shoot up...)

While true, do keep in mind that HPS is a misconceptualized value. HPS is near meaningless so long as the party has enough HP to survive whatever the next mechanic might be. Whether it comes from one or the other is also meaningless. I suppose the only way HPS may be useful is when it is compared to Overhealing. Even if a SCH can do 1.2k HPS with 150 DPS contributions, if they're overhealing by quite a bit, does it really matter? So long as your healers are working together as a team (which they should be), shenanigans could be had regardless.

Quite right, both of you. HPS isn't a good gauge of a healer to be perfectly fair. However it's a very good gauge of determine a healer's healing potential. If WHM is tooted for raw healing, there's no way a SCH should ever be able to match a WHM in raw HPS when both of them are playing properly. Unfortunately and sadly, this doesn't seem to be the case.

[UOdhn]

Stuff

Indeed. Unfortunately, the ability to play a class badly far outstripes the ability to play it well, especially in the case of healers. If they truly wanted, SCHs could easily make up the HPS because you have to factor in EHP and their shields, which most parses do count as HPS. The potential on the WHM is still there, it's just that in general, we haven't really need to utilize it to that point yet. As to your argument that a SCH should never be able match a WHM's HPS, that's not essentially true. A SCH using Selene will likely never be able to do so. However, Eos is an altogether different beast. Roused and with whispering dawn, a SCH can match a WHM's HPS for a few seconds, unless they're spamming heals, which isn't necessarily the SCH's job in a raid scenario.

[Risvertasashi]

I get the impression that people are still talking about HP/S in the sense that a parser displays it. Maybe it's my fault and I should have used different wording... but consider this:

So ACT shows both the WHM and SCH doing about the same HPS. Does that mean they have equal potential? Well... suppose the SCH dies during Flames of Rebirth spam. The WHM can handle that on their own just fine (although it is a bit rough on MP). If the WHM dies... If WD isn't available, it's a wipe. Even as ACT is telling you HP/S is about level.

Or if we can jump slightly further back in history... how well did SCH do with t2 enrage method (or t4 enrage if you hit that)? It has about the same HP/S potential as WHM, right?

That said it sounds like the expac is shoring up this particular weakness.

[firstsin]

Shouldn't we be thinking how AST will fit in with WHM or SCH. My understanding is that AST will have the ability to compliment either WHM or SCH much like how SCH and WHM cover each other weakness.

To go off on tangent and start speculating on progressing in the new raid without having a clue about the raid at all is no different to saying two AST or two WHM or AST/WHM combo wil be superior because or X reasons.

Most people with raid experience now do not have actual progress experience. Their experience comes from others who have discussed and over time refined builds and strategies. If anything most raiders have learned to execute the strategies developed by others.

If we look at how raid groups progress you'll see that both SCH and WHM were handling specific mechanics and healing in such a way to maximise healing efficiency.

The whole DPS matter came about once raid groups became geared well and were able survive with less healing. It has been already mentioned that SCH bring a lot of utility to a group but this utility does not come free. The price is a WHM doing the bulk of the healing.

[Galdous]

We will find out in 2 days if the white mage goes the way of the do-do bird.

Quite right, both of you. HPS isn't a good gauge of a healer to be perfectly fair. However it's a very good gauge of determine a healer's healing potential. If WHM is tooted for raw healing, there's no way a SCH should ever be able to match a WHM in raw HPS when both of them are playing properly. Unfortunately and sadly, this doesn't seem to be the case.

You say that now but you have always seemed to downplay people who wanted white mages buffed to the level of scholars. There is so much push back on the healer forums for meaningful white mage buffs which sadly do not seem to be happening with 3.0 minus the mini lustrate which scholar should never have had. Raw % based heals should have always been the realm of the white mage.

I am not so sure a regen bubble is even going to be remotely useful as long as mana is not really an issue. Since the second coils of bahamut and beyond healers have always strived to have people topped off within 1 second after a nasty blow of damage. As long as incoming damage can be predicted from the jump rope mechanics we all love that is ff 14 then the pure healing of a white mage will always be crippled. Regen is mainly useless when topping off people's hp always occurs in a quick manner.

[Spoekes]

Also, funny enough if you're playing Eos + SCH, you're HPS is about equal to a WHM. When my group was first progressing through T13, I actually had a slightly higher HPS than the WHM in my group using SCH + Eos (we were both outputting about 1.1K-1.2K HPS leading up to P3 my WHM partner certainly had a higher ilvl due to me wearing ACC melded accessories - we both had a ton of overhealing of course). Once we got more comfortable with the fight and I swapped to Selene, the HPS was more reasonable but his HPS still remained up in that 1.1-1.2K range while mine dropped to 500 HPS.

If both WHM and SCH are on same gear/skill and trying equally hard, I don't believe SCH and WHM get the same HP/S numbers on a fight like T13.
SCH has a easy time inflating parser numbers with succor shields in light to medium healing intensive fights.
But in T13 in particular the damage to the party is too high for that, medica and cure3 healbombs should heavily outheal the SCH.

There is some kind of flaw in your parser or math, or your team has been doing one perfect try and one ultra messed up.

How can both of you put out 1,2K (= 2,4 overall)(HP/S in my parsers is already filtering out overhealing, I suppose in yours too) on the one fight,
and the next fight you only do 500 (=1,7K overall) and still survive?
That would mean your party took close to 1K Damage per Second less on the second try.

Something seems fishy there.

[tjw]

How can both of you put out 1,2K (= 2,4 overall)(HP/S in my parsers is already filtering out overhealing, I suppose in yours too) on the one fight,
and the next fight you only do 500 (=1,7K overall) and still survive?
That would mean your party took close to 1K Damage per Second less on the second try.

Something seems fishy there.

I assume it's more Eos' WD overhealing more than anything. With Fey Illumination and Rouse, her WD heals 500 a tick. Times that by at least 9. 4.5k a tick, Granted, this happens every 2 minutes; usually her WD only does roughly 400 a tick. In total, over 2 minutes, assuming maximum uptime, she heals at least 56.7k, or roughly 475 HP a second. That's also not including her much stronger Embrace during Rouse and Fey Illumination, which, if you're like me, like to manually spam, can also overheal to an extent.

*Numbers are based on my i110 healer alt

[Spoekes]

I was under the impression that everyones parser will count out overhealing from HP/S and total healing done

[tjw]

I was under the impression that everyones parser will count out overhealing from HP/S and total healing done

I'm not too familiar with parsers, but the ones I've seen show total HPS (including overhealing) and then overhealing %.

[mp-please]

I was under the impression that everyones parser will count out overhealing from HP/S and total healing done

It doesn't, also every HoT counts as overhealing for some reason even if the target isn't at full hp. Which makes hps a complete useless "stat" when it comes to measure healer performance since one can just sit on the corner and spam heal on themselves to get a huge amount of hps.