Shortage of tanks a myth - thoughts?

[Kaethra]

I don't know if its been said here or not.. 12 pages is a bit to read.

But Tanks just aren't needed after a certain point. Think about it, everyone who's doing something has their 2 tanks. That's right they only need 2. They need specific DPS classes to round out their statics and raids. This happens in most MMORPGs.

Sure the low level queues are lacking tanks, but at the top of the spectrum, they aren't needed as much. So those tanks switch to DPS and cause the cycle to repeat.

The problem is in the holy trinity itself. And more specifically pushing classes into singular roles.

[KisaiTenshi]

The problem is in the holy trinity itself. And more specifically pushing classes into singular roles.

There is nothing wrong with the roles. You either end up with V1.0 style "dynamic class changing in battle" or you end up with Mabinogi-style "I have all the skillz and am a master at none" if you don't lock the roles. The problem is a lack of enforcement of the roles when the powercreep from the gear diminishes the roles for the tank and healer. That makes everyone try to faceroll through the content without paying attention to the game mechanics.

The player needs to come into the dungeon prepared to do the role they queued as, otherwise they make everyone miserable, and by extension make the game sound like it's filled with either crappy players or adult-children who don't know what responsibility is. Combine that with the RMT problems and it's a wonder why MMORPG's don't have greater churn.

[Kaethra]

There is nothing wrong with the roles. You either end up with V1.0 style "dynamic class changing in battle" or you end up with Mabinogi-style "I have all the skillz and am a master at none" if you don't lock the roles. The problem is a lack of enforcement of the roles when the powercreep from the gear diminishes the roles for the tank and healer. That makes everyone try to faceroll through the content without paying attention to the game mechanics.

You misunderstood what I said. I said when classes are FORCED into a role and cannot do anything else.

If you have no Warrior or Paladin, even in 4 man content (for your current gear level) can you make due without one? Heck in the duty finder you can't even get one to pop without one of those two classes in the queue. You can preform a group without a tank, but how far is that going to get? That's what I am talking about.

I'm not suggesting to give Dragoons or whatever class a stance to make them equal tanks as Warriors and Pallies, but in a pinch, especially for the small group content. It shouldn't be too farfetched. Course this is VERY hard to balance around the 4 man group.

Everquest uses the 6 man group system and you can get by without a tank class. Heck with enough hybrids you can get by with out tanks or healers. And its a good proof of a game that doesn't force people into singular roles. In fact your role is unknown until you see what else is in the group.

If you play a Paladin, you will probably tank. But sometimes you're tank and off healer. You might even be pushed into a main healer role (they heal as well as Druids and Shaman), lacking a cleric. You might even play off dps (dps that isn't as great as true dps) and provide buffs as needed (maybe have a shaman healer, and need HP/AC buffs).

If you play a Paladin in FF, you tank. You might main tank or off tank. But that's it.

In the above example, the paladin is not uber skill allz class.

But we're not talking about something that can be changed here. We've 4 spots. We can't alter that. So yes, we're stuck with DPS x 2, Healer, and Tank, and we just have to deal with the fact that there will be a tank shortage leveling up and a tank surplus as the top.

[vp_cmc]

You can preform a group without a tank, but how far is that going to get? That's what I am talking about.

According to this, group of 4 wars can get pretty far.

[Noshpan]

Speedpulling is part of the reason people get rightfully upset, because the tank never ask the healers what they can handle, nor do they look at what DPS configuration they have. Two Melee's, forget speedpulling (they will get creamed by the mobs AOE's, regardless of gear.) Two BLM's, Speedpull as much as possible if they are overgeared for the dungeon. BRD and SMN? Probably not going to happen.

I once queued for Expert Roulette as DRG. Get in and the other DPS is a MNK. After the first massive AOE pull, I guess is when the tank noticed group composition. He made a humorous comment and adjusted pace for the group's make-up.

If you have no Warrior or Paladin, even in 4 man content (for your current gear level) can you make due without one?

I'm not suggesting to give Dragoons or whatever class a stance to make them equal tanks as Warriors and Pallies, but in a pinch, especially for the small group content. It shouldn't be too farfetched. Course this is VERY hard to balance around the 4 man group.

When I was leveling SMN, I once tanked a Copperbell with my topaz carbuncle (because the tank was awful, & though we suggested that they use their threat-generating abilities, they refused... they also kept killing the bomb which was used to break up the second boss).