Summoner's Ifrit is bad

[Tannlore]

This image is a little old now, but it still makes its point.

Interesting numbers, but I think mileage may vary here. I've seen numbers that are quite different form this. Some of the numbers actually seem somewhat strange to me.

At any rate, there are also a number of other things to consider with Ifrit's use:

1) If you have a nin/war+monk are they keeping their buffs up? you think this is a no brainer, but well...
2) Ifrit's AoE is VERY small.. very.. very small. He engages aat max melee attack range, his AoE is centered on him and it's range is just a hair past his melee reach. It's quite easy to miss a grouping of mobs in a mass pile because the AoE just doesn't reach far enough. Garuda's localizes on the target, this insures more dmg landing as there's less chance for the AoE to just physically miss.
3) When raging + pots + foe etc are up for the contagion phase, the difference between the two is a far, far wider. This chart doesn't seem to count any buffs at all which isn't a fair correlation between the two.


Also, this needs to be said for anyone who is looking at this chart: numbers collected at a dummy are one thing when it's nice and sterile and nothing moves. In the field however is a different story.

That being said, they both have their place in certain content. I'm of the mind that neither one is a 100% use only sort of pet. Smn should be using both and should know when to use both. Is there a lot of movement/adds? Do the adds stack poorly? Do you have a slashing/blunt debeuff? Will ifrit be taking -Physical- hits to make the most of radiant shield? Do you need a stun and can it be a knock back or no?

It boils down to knowing the fights and the job honestly and realizing both pets have a place and sticking to just one will eventually nerf a summoner's dps. Who knows what will happen on the 19th? Ifrit may get his own version of contagion!


Edit: I knew something looked strange and it's the contagion sections This is only one half of the picture here.. the egi! Where is the smn's dmg? This isn't showing the synergy and gains from that inter-relationship.

[Meleoffs]

It's not so much dmg gained as it is mp efficiency gained.

[Havenchild]

Interesting numbers, but I think mileage may vary here. I've seen numbers that are quite different form this. Some of the numbers actually seem somewhat strange to me.

At any rate, there are also a number of other things to consider with Ifrit's use:

1) If you have a nin/war+monk are they keeping their buffs up? you think this is a no brainer, but well...
2) Ifrit's AoE is VERY small.. very.. very small. He engages aat max melee attack range, his AoE is centered on him and it's range is just a hair past his melee reach. It's quite easy to miss a grouping of mobs in a mass pile because the AoE just doesn't reach far enough. Garuda's localizes on the target, this insures more dmg landing as there's less chance for the AoE to just physically miss.
3) When raging + pots + foe etc are up for the contagion phase, the difference between the two is a far, far wider. This chart doesn't seem to count any buffs at all which isn't a fair correlation between the two.


Also, this needs to be said for anyone who is looking at this chart: numbers collected at a dummy are one thing when it's nice and sterile and nothing moves. In the field however is a different story.

That being said, they both have their place in certain content. I'm of the mind that neither one is a 100% use only sort of pet. Smn should be using both and should know when to use both. Is there a lot of movement/adds? Do the adds stack poorly? Do you have a slashing/blunt debeuff? Will ifrit be taking -Physical- hits to make the most of radiant shield? Do you need a stun and can it be a knock back or no?

It boils down to knowing the fights and the job honestly and realizing both pets have a place and sticking to just one will eventually nerf a summoner's dps. Who knows what will happen on the 19th? Ifrit may get his own version of contagion!


Edit: I knew something looked strange and it's the contagion sections This is only one half of the picture here.. the egi! Where is the smn's dmg? This isn't showing the synergy and gains from that inter-relationship.

I hate to break it to you, but the SMN synergy and damage from it doesn't matter.

Ifrit just does more damage overall. Contagion? Hardly a difference maker even for DoTs boosted with Raging and Foe over the course of encounters.

Do you need MNK or NIN/WAR? Nope, he already does more damage then Garuda without that.

His AoE? The range of his default attack no? It's not impossible to hit more then one target at all.

Movement? What do you define as movement? In T11 add phase, he beats Garuda there too and that's consistent movement.


Synergy:
Garuda + SMN = SMN + / Pet -
Ifrit + SMN = SMN - / Pet +

The difference here when we talk about synergy is that SMNs numbers aren't stagnant. They continually decrease as a fight goes on. So if you shift the focus of your DPS, to a source that maintains a constant number? You essentially save yourself DPS by losing less.
Ultimately what I'm saying is, no the field situation vs the dummy parse is not much different at all. Garuda's use atm is few and far between.

[Judge_Xero]

Movement? What do you define as movement? In T11 add phase, he beats Garuda there too and that's consistent movement.

This statement is pretty significant because Ifrit as a melee class can attack while moving. You also have time to move Ifrit into PLACE during the Module Spawns so that his downtime attacking the Sphere is limited.

On fights where there are adds and excessive movement, you wouldn't move Ifrit off the main boss anyways. (T12 Phoenix, T13 Bahamut etc)

-------------------------------------------

Shinryu's numbers are completely correct as well on how much extra damage you get from those additional Ifrit skills.

You just need to make sure of where you are attacking from with Ifrit as currently you need Tank accuracy to hit Flank 100% so make sure you are get getting his attacks off from the rear.

Interesting numbers, but I think mileage may vary here. I've seen numbers that are quite different form this. Some of the numbers actually seem somewhat strange to me.

If something doesn't look right to you then feel free to test yourself to draw your own conclusions. Parse your Ifrit on Obey and let it just whack away, and then test again using it's extra skills on CD. Your numbers may be different as well because you have high Crit and Spell Speed, where as you would want high Crit/Det. (Spell Speed effects Garuda but not Ifrit)

At any rate, there are also a number of other things to consider with Ifrit's use:

1) If you have a nin/war+monk are they keeping their buffs up? you think this is a no brainer, but well...Ifrit is still higher DPS
2) Ifrit's AoE is VERY small.. very.. very small. He engages aat max melee attack range, his AoE is centered on him and it's range is just a hair past his melee reach. It's quite easy to miss a grouping of mobs in a mass pile because the AoE just doesn't reach far enough. Garuda's localizes on the target, this insures more dmg landing as there's less chance for the AoE to just physically miss. Ifrit is the Single Target pet and Garuda is the AOE pet. If you have enough AOE to warrant Garuda then this is a no-brainer.
3) When raging + pots + foe etc are up for the contagion phase, the difference between the two is a far, far wider. This chart doesn't seem to count any buffs at all which isn't a fair correlation between the two. Ifrit quickly outpaces the initial burst of using Buffed Dots + Contagion.


Also, this needs to be said for anyone who is looking at this chart: numbers collected at a dummy are one thing when it's nice and sterile and nothing moves. In the field however is a different story. - Making the most efficient use of your pet will equalize the difference between a dummy chart and an actual fight

That being said, they both have their place in certain content. I'm of the mind that neither one is a 100% use only sort of pet. Smn should be using both and should know when to use both. Is there a lot of movement/adds? Do the adds stack poorly? Do you have a slashing/blunt debeuff? Will ifrit be taking -Physical- hits to make the most of radiant shield? Do you need a stun and can it be a knock back or no?

The right pet for the right job is definitely important. Ifrit is just usually the right pet and Radiant Shield is terrible.


Edit: I knew something looked strange and it's the contagion sections This is only one half of the picture here.. the egi! Where is the smn's dmg? This isn't showing the synergy and gains from that inter-relationship. - On Average Contagion is equal to 15s/GCD - 3GCD = # of Ruins
So in current gear ~ 240 Potency * 4.5 @ 60s Intervals = ~18 DPS for the Summoner.

Comparing pet damage of the current BiS you have Ifrit 195 - Garuda 152 + Summoner 18 = 170

So even without Slash/Blunt Ifrit is doing a more consistent 25 DPS, and that's if Summoner is getting 100% use of their extended Dots (adds not dyeing before they run their full duration)

It's not so much dmg gained as it is mp efficiency gained.

No, it's only about Damage Gained as a DPS class. It doesn't matter if you finish the fight with 10 MP or 3000 MP.

[Meleoffs]

No, it's only about Damage Gained as a DPS class. It doesn't matter if you finish the fight with 10 MP or 3000 MP.

No I was saying garuda is an MP gain not a dmg gain. I've been for Ifrit for this entire thread you don't have to explain it to me rofl.

[Judge_Xero]

No I was saying garuda is an MP gain not a dmg gain. I've been for Ifrit for this entire thread you don't have to explain it to me rofl.

Lmao. Yeah I took it completely out of context. Going back and reading the full thing I see it now.

Apologies /bow

[pandabearcat]

Contagion's actual damage contribution can be though of as a nuke that gives you...roughly 1.875 GCDs.

So essentially it's an ability that does 150 potency.

Using this data, you can realize that under RS + pots + whathaveyou, its equivalent to Ifrit using a skill under those conditions as well.

[Dyvid]

I understand what the OP is saying and I totally agree. Stun and Silence needs to be removed from pets, period.

[pandabearcat]

But that is utility...do you guys even think before you propose something? What if a SMN is in pvp and needs to interrupt something? Or is soloing? Or your other interrupters die?

If the problem is "bad" summoners casting stuns etc, what SE needs to realize is

1. Many, many abilities (notably DRG, MNK oGCDs) stun as well.
2. The reason they are in rotations is because they are a (in some cases, significant) dps increase
3. Make stuns not have any potency, esp not high potency like MNK or DRG ones. DPS should not be coupled with CC.
or
4. Remove pet stuns/silences from Sic.

or, and this is my favorite one

5. Realize nothing needs to be interrupted and just deal with it.

[Sunako]

Contagion's actual damage contribution can be though of as a nuke that gives you...roughly 1.875 GCDs.

So essentially it's an ability that does 150 potency.

Using this data, you can realize that under RS + pots + whathaveyou, its equivalent to Ifrit using a skill under those conditions as well.

You forget contagion does 0 damage for garuda and it make pretty long delay for next wind blade attack because it have pretty long animation so you are not gaining even that 150 potency and if you have rouse + spur active during you do it, it is even bigger dps lose for garuda. Contagion increase your own dps but it is dps loss for your pet at same time.