Please Allow 50's to Enter Ishgard w/o having completed MSQ

[KisaiTenshi]

Sandbox MMOs do exist. Minecraft and its imitators completely count. SWG was also leaning further on the sandbox element than most of its contemporaries. Second life is yet another example, probably the crowning big cheese of sandboxes really. EVE online is a fairly restrictive example (in that when you started out, you could do anything you could afford to do). A more contemporary example would be Landmark, where players are literally shaping the world.
Being able to "stomp around and do whatever you want" is what you do in these games, you just have limitations. Even real sandboxes don't work like that. You need tools and things from outside to make cool things in the sandbox, and the sandbox will always be limited in its size and shape.

Before the -craft games (World of WarCRAFT and MineCRAFT) MMOs were mostly theme park-sandbox hybrids. Upon logging in, you could do and go wherever you wanted, within the limits allotted to you. The story was almost non-existent and you had very little lasting influence on the world.

The reason I had to mention it at all is because a lot of games call themselves sandboxes, and none of them are. It's a marketing term with no actual agreed upon definition. So you have everything from Grand Theft Auto, to Skyrim and Fallout to Archeage calling themselves sandboxes, when the only thing in common between these games is having no penalty to ignoring the storyline.

[Nadirah]

To call WoW a sandbox is to make me laugh.

There hasn't been a true sandbox MMO in years and WoW is a total theme park.

SWG was a sandbox. EQN Landmark is a sandbox. EQ1 is a sandbox. asheron's Call 1/2 were sandboxes.

WoW? No. Aion, Neverwinter, EQ2, WildStar, ESO.... Nope, nope, NOPE.

[Lemuria]

Don't worry, all of you fighting to keep the MSQ required.
They won't change it a week before release, so let them complain.

Well, since not even a single person has actually given a good reason why they should change it, I don't see it happening any time soon.

Good luck with that dream though. Maybe it'll happen if you wish upon a star. And maybe one day I'll get my winged flying unicorn that farts rainbows.

[Reinha]

Wow, people are so eager to put words in new players mouths in this thread. Here's my perspective after playing 3 or 4 months.

The story was not a boring grind but an adventure. I started from nothing and worked my way to earn convenience, gil and recognition while occasionally fighting alongside other budding adventurers. I felt immersed and had a fun leveling experience overall. It didn't matter that I was behind everyone and I'm happy that most people encouraged me to take my time instead of rushing. When I got to the end of the story I wished I could have continued to Ishgard there and then. Newer players that start during HW will get to experience that.

I'm excited about the new jobs just as much as others, but I'm also busy with trying the existing classes. I have only 5 jobs at 50 so far. My goal from the start has been to play them all to at least max level (how else would I know my favourite?), so having to level to 50 for Ishgard access is not a big deal.

You are really underestimating new players intelligence if you think they don't know about the all the gating before buying the game. They can play trial, read forums, check out game reviews, watch developer interviews and visit the official pages for information so please don't assume new players will suffer. Anyone who buys the game or expansion knows what they are getting into. If someone doesn't, shame on them. The game doesn't need to be changed to please the ignorant.

[Balipu]

They should be allowed to do the fresh content as the job they want to do the fresh content as, which will foster positive learning in new players. The game is designed for the playerbase as a whole, without isolating people, and this is why I'm stressing it's a bad design decision that they should change.

Oh, they will be allowed to do 3.0 content with the new jobs. Just stop the MSQ the moment you unlock one of the expansion jobs and level it up to 50. I originally mained a dragoon and killed Shiva with it. After that I switched to ninja and it has been my main ever since.



So the fastest way is to sit, play, and read every quest, doing dungouns for the first time and learning the mechanics of the class, etc etc?
It's not, you're just assuming that people will do it the way that people level alts / off-classes will do it.

You won't be able to skip this part if you want to play a combat class.

There's only a certain amount of carrying that people can do, though. :3 I don't know if people are going to be running through the dungouns on their 50's (Though they might be! Depends. Haven't seen SE's new system yet so def. excited for that.) People might just continue the traditional method of clearing it especially for the EXP.

Actually since you will have the chance to solo dungeons carrying will be easier than ever. You will be allowed to go in unsynched if you have less players available.


It's not really about being owed more, it's just that everyone should be able to access the jobs that start at level 30, at level 30. It makes the most logical sense and would be the best design for the flow of the game, as that's when you access all other jobs. Hell, I remember people arguing for level 1 new jobs so they could "Have the pleasure of leveling 1-30"... so glad SE didn't follow that mindset again.

Thing is, we knew about the jobs being in Ishgard before we knew about the level 30. A lot of people assumed that they would start on level 50.

They might see that the DRK is an awesome job, but think DRG look awesome too and since they gotta go 1-50 with a job anyways, may as well play a guy with a big pointy stick!

So they will roll one of the 10 currently existing jobs cause it looks awesome. What's the problem with that? They will have fun and maybe stop complaining about the 'good stuff" being locked away.

Simple fact is that even if you go 1-50 as GLD/MRD, that doesn't mean you'll know 30-50 as a DRK. Even the tanking dynamic between MRD/GLD is already different enough (So many paladins think you just spam overpower as a WAR, which is the least effective way to hold threat especially at level 50.)

Attempting to argue that a new player will take the most logical route on everything and therefore will fufill your minimalist requirements is not an effective arguement. Try to account for players who experiment and learn. We all came into this game a newb and didn't klnow the best ways to 50 / leveling. But we learned them after a time. between MRD/GLD is already different.

Exactly. These new classes are complicated as hell and you wouldn't trust most level 50s with them. Conclusion: It is best to gate it behind as much content as possible.

[Eidolon]

I have addressed this previously...

As a side note-

All of the people fully caught up on MSQ have zero access to the 2.0 xp benefits.

This means when they level up the new jobs, they cannot exploit MSQ to level faster and get those jobs to 50.

In the OP's dreams, a DoH/DoL bot could get the jobs on day one and have unlimited access to the 2.0 xp benefits.

This means when they level up the new jobs, they can skip working on DoW/DoM levels 11-30, they can exploit MSQ to level faster and get those jobs to 50 BEFORE veteran players, in the same alotted time.

So bots can access leves and dailies faster. Which means they can cap DoH/DoL faster. Which means they can control the market faster than even the most hardcore players.

Screwing with our economy. Massively.

And some say its a means to "let people play how they want without as many gates". hah.

Yes, I know. There was snark- this thread has been running circles around the same arguments for days because people were skimming (or skipping) before posting duplicate arguments,and I was content to throwing a wrench in the works. But the points stand. Indirect consequences people aren't considering, which do indeed create 'fairness' issues, and even economic issues.

So let's say that you have to have a level 30 job to unlock the other level 30 jobs.

I'm a little confused by your statement here.

1) Someone who is first going to use the MSQ to go 1-50 will not have access to kill EXP provided by having a job already at 50. This is actually a pretty substantial boon that helps in leveling any job 1-40.

2) How would they explot this 11-30 if they already have a level 30 job? I do not believe I am following or understanding you.

3) Why does it matter if they have, say, DRK/AST/MCH to 30 before others? The game does not track "World First" achievements for level 50/60. This literally has little to no baring on anything in the game.

4) The easiest of w ays to prevent a concern having DoH/DoL unlocking the battle class is simply to make it so only a DoW/DoM class can unlock the classes respectively. Minimum requirements in other jobs in order to unlock them (And don't act like it's hard - all the quests for jobs have some kind of job/class related lock)

I'm very confused by this, and I do not believe I am understanding what you are actually getting at.

Oh, they will be allowed to do 3.0 content with the new jobs. Just stop the MSQ the moment you unlock one of the expansion jobs and level it up to 50. I originally mained a dragoon and killed Shiva with it. After that I switched to ninja and it has been my main ever since.

Forgive me if I am incorrect, but is Ninja not just a case where all you must do is unlock it like any other job? Is it not a case where you merely must take your first job to... 10? 15? And then you can go do a quest to unlock it? IIRC that is the way it is, and is a very effective way of not gating content behind pointless story.

Just because you chose to wait, doesn't mean that every player had to. Those who were eager to level NIN were allowed to as soon as it was unlocked in a patch. In the scenario lsited, if SE gave us access to Heavensward jobs at 30, it would be much more in the same spirit as Ninja to do so because it would be giving us access to the job at a level appropriate.

Actually since you will have the chance to solo dungeons carrying will be easier than ever. You will be allowed to go in unsynched if you have less players available.

Like I said, I don't know if people will be doing this because it would take away all the EXP gain you could get (Keep in mind, high level 50's clearing everything would give you crap for exp if you took a level 15 into a dungoun... so the only point would b e getting armor.)

In other words, this is an extremely unlikely situation and what's more likely is people will enter the dungouns with their freinds and clear together, which will be less of a carry and moreso completing the content in a meaningful way. The only time they might do the carry is A) To get the armor, or B) to help their friend clear the MSQ one time and move on. And they'll do that regardless of job, so it has no relevance to 3.0 jobs.

thing is, we knew about the jobs being in Ishgard before we knew about the level 30. A lot of people assumed that they would start on level 50.

What's the point here, if I may ask? The amount of knowledge we had about the new jobs and their requirements has little to no baring on the discussion at hand.

As stated, once we knew they would be level 30, it made sense that the only limitation of unlocking them would be having a level 30 job and -maybe- having another job at 15 to support it (As current jobs work this way.)

So...
I don't understand what you're getting at. Sorry.

So they will roll one of the 10 currently existing jobs cause it looks awesome. What's the problem with that? They will have fun and maybe stop complaining about the 'good stuff" being locked away.

You're quoting out of context. Do you know what the issue I was outlining with that was? It was the counter to the idea that someone will level as a tank (PLD/WAR) 1-50 and then switch to DRK at 50 because it was the most logical. My counter was that someone might choose to go with DRG (A DPS) and then switch to DRK at 30, instantly negating the whole point he had about it being "Helpful" to new players to be forced to 50 this way and that it would teach them their role.

Exactly. These new classes are complicated as hell and you wouldn't trust most level 50s with them. Conclusion: It is best to gate it behind as much content as possible.

Here's the issue you're missing, though.

Fate Grinding doesn't often teach you meaningful use of your job. And this is how -many- people are going to level due to the massive influx of players making FATE grinding extremely lucrative out the gate for people trying to level as fast as possible. Meanwhile, if we allowed them to access the job at level 30, they would take the level 30 Job through MSQ and get to experience it and learn it via dungouns far more effectively than doing anything else.

It is far more beneficial to let the player play as the job they want as soon as possible (In my scenario, once they have a battle class to 30) than it is to make them take a step back. As cited before, we've seen many FATE-ninjas and just how bad they can be.

[kyuven]

To call WoW a sandbox is to make me laugh.

There hasn't been a true sandbox MMO in years and WoW is a total theme park.

SWG was a sandbox. EQN Landmark is a sandbox. EQ1 is a sandbox. asheron's Call 1/2 were sandboxes.

WoW? No. Aion, Neverwinter, EQ2, WildStar, ESO.... Nope, nope, NOPE.

Actually I'd argue Neverwinter is more of a sandbox than EQ1 ever was.
Cuz see...with the exception of ONE encounter, player actions in EQ1 never really had an effect on the world. It seemed "sandbox-y," but it was only because the game had a complete lack of direction to it. SWG, EVE, and Second Life are all sandboxes because player actions have a tangible effect on the environment. Of course EQ1 gets a sort of grandfather clause applied to it since the concept of "sandbox" and "theme park" didn't exist back then.
With Neverwinter? At least you could make your own quests. Pales in comparison to Landmark, Second Life, SWG, and Minecraft of course.

The reason I had to mention it at all is because a lot of games call themselves sandboxes, and none of them are. It's a marketing term with no actual agreed upon definition. So you have everything from Grand Theft Auto, to Skyrim and Fallout to Archeage calling themselves sandboxes, when the only thing in common between these games is having no penalty to ignoring the storyline.

GTA has always been a sandbox. GTA3 kind of helped coin the term.
The Elder Scrolls series also helped coin the term alongside GTA, and fallout 3 and onward follow the same formula as TES.
ArcheAge is KIND OF a sand box. It's a sandbox with regulation tools and regulation sand.

A lack of "Agreed upon definitions" doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means there's a grey area.
For example, GTA and TES/Fallout are open world, single player sandboxes.
Second Life, SWG, ArcheAge, Minecraft, and their imitators are sandbox-type MMOs. A sandbox is generally a game where a player can have an effect on the world they're playing it, rather that just literally following scripts from beginning to end.
The grey area comes in for games LIKE DAOC, ArcheAge, TESO or GW2, where you have an influence of sorts but it doesn't truly matter in the grand scheme of things. A lot of older games, pre-WoW especially, fall in this category, usually due to hardware limitations.
Some peoples' expectations for a "true" sandbox MMO weren't even really possible until recently, with the release and popularization of games like Minecraft and Landmark. But those older games still need to be categorized.

[Alacran]

You know... Im sure it has been said before but in the time it has taken for this thread to get this far, much of the MSQ could have been completed...

[XxSliphxX]

So every new player has the exact same attitude as you? And you have the gall to call someone else elitist?.... Egocentric at its finest.

Would you play an open world FFA PVP game and complain theres PvP in it? Which is what you are doing with a storycentric MMO.

Playing a game you refer to as tedious instead of something you don't find tedious is the height of stupidity.

I said the "story" is tedious i also said i liked the gameplay, characters, and world. Which is why i play this game. Trying to twist my words to feed your view of me is just that. Your twisted view. Your analogy also makes no sense. It's vastly out of proportion to what i was trying to say. But trying to have a rational conversation in a thread full of Final fanbois where "Story is everything!" and "Everyone must go through what i did!" as a rationale for the current expansion was obviously my mistake. So carry on and ignore the obvious of what I was trying to say.

[Raist]

Dungeons yes. Trials? No.

XP/hour ratio isnt high enough.

Depends on how much they tweak the experience. Remember...they are boosting experience gain on the older content. Who knows...there might even be a daily exp bonus added to the roulletes. We don't know all the specifics yet, but we do know we will begin to get exp again and depending on how they do it that may be boosted somehow. So their exists a potential motivation for us to take them up again.