Please Allow 50's to Enter Ishgard w/o having completed MSQ

[KisaiTenshi]

1) Those are not CASUAL players you so want to protect.
2) Those people need a Sandbox MMO, not a Themepark MMO, FFXIV is a story-focused themepark MMO.

I hate these labels because there's no actual definition.

A Sandbox MMO, no such animal exists. The definition most people are using for sandbox MMO's are just open-ended games with little to no storyline. A true sandbox game would literately allow you to stomp over everything and everyone if that is what the player wants. As it is, it's mostly a marketing buzzword for "you can put your house anywhere" and "lots of stuff to craft." It would be more fair to call these "crafting-oriented RPG" rather than a sandbox.

A themepark MMO, is what most MMORPG's are when there is a storyline involved. You can "hop off" the storyline ride and do other stuff, and pick up where you left off. There is no inherent risk in delaying storyline completion. That princess that was abducted 3 months ago? It will be like it was no less than 5 minutes ago. These are better defined as "story-driven RPG"

Story-driven games crafting elements are often a waste of time and completely optional because equivalent gear is obtainable from just playing the combat content. Meanwhile crafting-oriented games only you to progress by crafting certain things yourself, and the RPG elements of these games are often limited by resource scarcity.

If there was nothing but a story, then as soon as the player completes the story, they unsubscribe and go play something else. What keeps people playing is the quest to be prepared for the next content patch.

[sirDarts]

*snip*

Oh lovely circlejerking about definitions. OK lets change this to comparisons.

Take TES games for example. You can do anything you want, you can completely ignore the story, you can level and do stuff without touching the story. That's the kind of game these players want. That's what I call a sandbox game. That's what for example WoW is.

On the other hand take Final Fantasy games, you HAVE TO do the story, in most cases you can't even leave the first area without doing the story, you don't get new jobs/classes, you don't get new weapons, you don't get new characters. That's the kind of game FFXIV is (baffling, ey?). That's what I call a story-focused themepark game.

The story is not the only goal, it isn't the only thing you can do, but it's the MAIN thing. And people who don't like this have CLEARLY chosen the wrong game.

[FallenArisen0990]

The story is not the only goal, it isn't the only thing you can do, but it's the MAIN thing. And people who don't like this have CLEARLY chosen the wrong game.

/end thread

[kyuven]

snip

Sandbox MMOs do exist. Minecraft and its imitators completely count. SWG was also leaning further on the sandbox element than most of its contemporaries. Second life is yet another example, probably the crowning big cheese of sandboxes really. EVE online is a fairly restrictive example (in that when you started out, you could do anything you could afford to do). A more contemporary example would be Landmark, where players are literally shaping the world.
Being able to "stomp around and do whatever you want" is what you do in these games, you just have limitations. Even real sandboxes don't work like that. You need tools and things from outside to make cool things in the sandbox, and the sandbox will always be limited in its size and shape.

Before the -craft games (World of WarCRAFT and MineCRAFT) MMOs were mostly theme park-sandbox hybrids. Upon logging in, you could do and go wherever you wanted, within the limits allotted to you. The story was almost non-existent and you had very little lasting influence on the world.

Oh lovely circlejerking about definitions. OK lets change this to comparisons.

Take TES games for example. You can do anything you want, you can completely ignore the story, you can level and do stuff without touching the story. That's the kind of game these players want. That's what I call a sandbox game. That's what for example WoW is.

I'd call WoW a theme park, actually, for one important reason: They have no form of personal housing system. The hallmark of sandbox games is the ability to affect the world somehow, even if it's just having your own house to show off.
WoW, instead, is kind of like "Disneyland" in that it has a whole bunch of "lands" with their own themes and stories.
FFXIV meanwhile is like Six Flags. There's usually no larger grouping theme to the rides, aside from a few little off-shoot lands, and the focus is instead the rides that are all mostly the same type of ride.

[KisaiTenshi]

Sandbox MMOs do exist. Minecraft and its imitators completely count. SWG was also leaning further on the sandbox element than most of its contemporaries. Second life is yet another example, probably the crowning big cheese of sandboxes really. EVE online is a fairly restrictive example (in that when you started out, you could do anything you could afford to do). A more contemporary example would be Landmark, where players are literally shaping the world.
Being able to "stomp around and do whatever you want" is what you do in these games, you just have limitations. Even real sandboxes don't work like that. You need tools and things from outside to make cool things in the sandbox, and the sandbox will always be limited in its size and shape.

Before the -craft games (World of WarCRAFT and MineCRAFT) MMOs were mostly theme park-sandbox hybrids. Upon logging in, you could do and go wherever you wanted, within the limits allotted to you. The story was almost non-existent and you had very little lasting influence on the world.

The reason I had to mention it at all is because a lot of games call themselves sandboxes, and none of them are. It's a marketing term with no actual agreed upon definition. So you have everything from Grand Theft Auto, to Skyrim and Fallout to Archeage calling themselves sandboxes, when the only thing in common between these games is having no penalty to ignoring the storyline.

[Eidolon]

Well a grind implies doing the same thing over and over, the tasks in MSQ are effectively varied to the point where it couldn't truly be a grind. Fetch quests, yes, but the goalpost is never the exact same.

That and we don't know how much is being dropped from msq requirements, I know some tasks are... tangential.

I could not disagree more with you. Many of the quests are a simple case of "Go to X, talk to Y NPC, do Z task. Oh, minifilia is calling you! Go talk to her, get some more story, go to X, talk to Y NPC, do Z task..." Sometimes it's outright INFURIATING at that, as there's nothing as painful as constantly having to run back to the Waking Sands (remember that pre-rising stones times?)

To me, the story is a grind with a slight story attatched. It's not the best story in the world, but it's enjoyable enough. Even still, there is SO MUCH fodder in there, so much "running around" that it really grows old VERY fast.

Its more than that. If they open the gates to everyone and their mom, they would need a well thought out reason to do so, or it would fly in the face of five years worth of Coerthan NPCs giving us the proverbial finger when we walk by, quests explaining how xenophobic they are, the fact the shield hasn't come down except for residents in the past five years, and even the relentless examples in the MSQ explaining how they won't raise a finger to help even when a flipping moon is about to impact the planet. FOr FF to reverse all of that would, in all likelihood, require a massive rewrite of their entire story. Which would be damaging to their brand.

Why, though? Why does it matter to you? You have had the 5 years of them flipping you the bird, and you likewise feel accomplished in unlocking it by having cleared it. You can feel as though you've earned your entry way into ishgard.

Meanwhile, players who are new to the game series won't know this "Five years" you speak of. To them it's not as meaningful as it would be to someone from 1.0/2.0 respectively. So why should your standard be used as a limitation upon a new player?

Would it potentially require some rewriting? Yea, possibly. Could they keep Ishgard locked-off for the most part while allowing people to access the new jobs? This is also very possible, and is a very realistic path they could have taken.

You could easily decouple the jobs needing Ishgard access and put one in each of the three major city-states. And to top it all off? It would help the balance of starting jobs.
Put Tank in Gridania, which currently lacks a tanking class.
Put Healer in Ul'dah, which currently lacks a healing class.
Put DPS in Limsa, which has 1 DPS Class (Ninja), 1 Hybrid (SCH/SMN), and 1 Tank (WAR)
Not only have you balanced out the need to enter heavensward, you've assisted players by moving tanks/heals/dps around to be spread out more evenly between the three. Though thankfully this isn't the case in games such as WoW where it might be far more pressing, as all pathes converge at 15* (Edited this! accidentally put 50 originally. Sorry 'bout that, it's a bit late!)

They may indeed find an effective way to allow it without screwing up the lore, but I don't see it myself. Time will tell. Even if they did allow anyone brand new in, I would completely agree that they continue the distrust until said players clear Steps of Faith as the equivalent of completing the final guild class quest to earn their trust and access to the jobs. Note I didnt mention level once. Its all about nudging the people til they like you, not what gear you are wearing. The conditions don't HAVE to be the same across the board. Just like you can't roll Rogue, the arcanist has TWO jobs you need only level once for access to both, and now some jobs are classless. Variety is good, yes?

I can't disagree with the concept of variety. Variety is good, but not when it comes with restrictions that prevent people from enjoying them properly. Even though there is variety in what you listed, each of those you can access at level 1, and they likewise start at level 1. The new jobs start at level 30, and should likewise be accessed at level 30.

It would be AWESOME to be treated like **** by the NPC's if you hadn't cleared the level 50 MSQ. That would be an amazing level of depth, mirrored well by the fact that certain NPC's recognize us already! I absolutely -LOVE- that idea, and reflecting that in the quests would be downright AWESOME. They could even mix in one of the class quests so that you have to talk to your trainer just before the confrontation at Big Bridge, giving you access to an additional quest to get some slightly stronger armor for each class.

You and I have the s ame faith in Square Enix to write a story. The point we diverge at, right now, is that you like the lock for lore reasons. And I completely respect that. But I feel the lore reasons are merely the writer's convenience, and not a compelling enough excuse when I know they could write better.

See, i think even suggesting them to be level 50 is too much of a handout, even for the work it takes to gain access to them. They NEED people to keep queueing roulettes, and the best way is to give those of us with 50 'everything' a reason to go back to them.

1 is overkill. 50 makes content too easy to skip. 30 is a nice round number which allows compromise.

Oh, don't misunderstand! I am not arguing this point at all. Level 30 or level 50 doesn't matter anymore, and I think SE made the right choice by not dropping us back to level 1 A la Ninja. 30 is a good concession and while it's not the 50 I'd prefer, it will have to do.

The point I am discussing in this, however, is moreso just the logical progression of the leveling. Going from level 1 to 50 via MSQ, only to be dropped back to 30 and forced to Fate Grind / Dungoun / Do a leve every 12 hours is counter-intuitive for a player who wants to player a new job. If they bought the expansion, they simply should have access to this job at the level it is provided (30, not 50.)