New glamour dress on a male (art)

[hallard]

As a femroe player, I honestly don't see why any of you guys would want it. Femroes naturally have squared shoulders and more masculine frames, and this sort of effeminate style just looks...strange on them. If it looks strange on a manly female character, then it would be even worse on a manlier male. The skirt is made to emphasize the wider hips of a woman, as many skirts do, which doesn't quite work on a femroe's narrower hips, and would look downright silly on a male. While male clothes can be tailored to suit a woman, the reverse is very difficult to achieve without coming off as a joke. Just look at the top on these sketches, they just look weird on a man. They have nothing they need to cover, no need for support, and no need for such an unnecessary strip of cloth across their chest.

Then you consider the reality of a man in that skirt, their meat and veg audibly slapping about due to their inability to wear underwear without ruining the aesthetic of the open sides...ugh.

[Onikimaru]

Kathryn

Player

Reason
Actually for get it it's not worth it.

Was about to reply to it :P but you're right. It's not worth it. I will however tell you that if they've already done this in the past and will jump over hoops for females, why can't they do it for us?.

PS i still don't wear dresses XD i just promote equal rights!.

[NozomiKei]

*le sigh*

I'm pretty sure the girls aren't going commando so why would the guys...? Also, if you looked I toned down the flare of the sashes on the hips so that they'd lay flatter (I don't even like them the way they are on girls.) I started as a femroe and pretty much nothing looked right to me when I wore it. The difference here is that femroes lack a defined waist which makes them look a bit less super feminine (they're pretty rectangular) but the males have broader shoulders than girls so the effect of a smaller waist is created (they're a bit more like a dorito in the torso). When paired with the skirt the slight flare actually matches their natural shape and gives visual weight to the bottom that grounds the more top heavy frame. On femroes the effect is of a rectangle getting wider at the hips so you look a bit chunky.

I've already addressed the general unhappiness with the top by proposing an alternate design and I'm working on another which eliminates the fabric completely (though I feel the fabric there is a good choice design-wise for several reasons).

But really as I keep saying the issue isn't whether or not male characters should wear this, it's that male and female characters are being treated unequally.

[kyuven]

I'm pretty sure those are speculations based in expectation and hearsay.

I mean, how would you define femininity? As the quality of being female. But how do you define being female? The only objective definition "is of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes." ie. XY.

And that's pretty much it. Everything else is social contract. And I have yet to hear an argument I find strong enough that supports the idea that one must adhere to those so strictly.

I mean. Why does it upset anyone? What's the true core problem that causes so much duress in some people?

I've said it before but it doesn't matter why it stirs up duress in people, it only matters that it does.
This thread is 40 pages of people arguing why or why not men should be able to wear dresses. Specifically, one of the most feminine dresses (by STANDARD Japanese and STANDARD North American, I can't speak for Europe, societal perceptions of masculinity and femininity) the development team has ever come up with.
It doesn't matter whether WE like it or not. It only matters if doing so would cause more problems than not doing so.
The very fact that there is even a point of contention is likely their reason for avoiding the issue in the first place. Which is a VERY Japanese thing to do.
Again, the "Why" is not important. Only the fact that you have to ask why in the first place is important.
"But why is it ok for women to be wearing the masculine outfits?" you ask.
For the opposite reason: They would catch more heat for keeping the outfits locked to men than they would for making them wearable by both genders.
There's also one simple, irrefutable fact: In Japan and America, if a woman walks into work one day wearing pants and the next a skirt, no one will say a word.
If a man walks in wearing a skirt, he attracts attention. It may be as simple as some co-workers laughing about it around the water cooler, or it could be as bad as getting called into the boss's office. And drawing attention to yourself in Japanese culture in such a way is frowned upon.
You may not like it, and to be honest I'm not happy about it either, but this is simply reality.

[Radacci]

Why is it such a problem that men and women are different? and why do ppl want to blur the line, so badly? or pretend there isn't any line?
There was this campaign some year ago "We like different" I think it was against racism, but can be applied to sexuality, and gender as well i guess.
Ethnicity, culture, color, heritage is important to a lot of ppl; if you take that away from them, or say it doesn't matter, you're basically a racist.
Gender identity is also important to ppl, so if you take that away from ppl, you're basically a sexist.
It's not equality to remove the distinction. It's equality to celebrate both as distinct, and equal.
If you wanna cross the line, go ahead, but don't force others to conform to your view; calling them sexist, if they don't.
You can give a boy, lots options, like pink clothes and barbies - most are still gonna pick cars, action figures and guns, and wrestle and play war; cause it's what THEY WANT.
It's not an illusory stereotype, it's how we work. Of course there's plenty of variations, but there's a norm for a reason, and that is cause men and women ARE different, both physiologically and psychologically.
Kids don't turn gay, cause they got 2 dads, and you're not going to not be masculine, just cause you had feminine stuff to choose from. Options are just options, they don't make a difference; you're who you are - nature and nurture are different things, and nurture isn't gonna change your nature.

[Ymal]

Wh-

This is about being able to get the same amount of gear no matter if they are feminine looking or not in a video game, why is this turning into a 'gay isn't a choice' and 'being different is okay' kind of thing??
I just want my dude to be able to wear nice clothing, it doesn't have anything to do with sexuality or gender or whatnot, just that the devs stop being lazy.

As a femroe player, I honestly don't see why any of you guys would want it.

Well many of us have shown a huge interest it in, players with female and male characters, so thank you for your visual description but if you don't like it you don't have to worry about it then no?, like it is for every piece of glamour in this game. I personally liked it and like I showed in a previous post SE has been found of giving men their own bra even if they have nothing that needs to be covered.

[Noxifer]

"But why is it ok for women to be wearing the masculine outfits?" you ask.
For the opposite reason: They would catch more heat for keeping the outfits locked to men than they would for making them wearable by both genders.

So.... They would catch more heat for giving women one outfit and men one outfit (as long as they are comparable, not like in the case of zetzer vs bunny).... than they would for giving women two outfits and men one outfit? Let's apply the same equality to other things. Female characters get two loot drops per week from Alexander, men get one. Or vice versa: Men get two rolls and women get one. I'm sure that would go over well =D

Gender identity is also important to ppl, so if you take that away from ppl, you're basically a sexist.
It's not equality to remove the distinction. It's equality to celebrate both as distinct, and equal.
If you wanna cross the line, go ahead, but don't force others to conform to your view; calling them sexist, if they don't.

....Yes. Right. Equal. That's what this thread is about, actually. Male characters being given the same amount of options for glamour as female characters. And if female characters get to wear the male counterpart to this outfit, why would it then be fair to lock the female counterpart to female only?

Of course, most boys are going to choose male-labeled clothing and male-labeled toys and games. Because just like girls get told they're not real girls unless they like pink dresses and makeup (sometimes outright, sometimes merely through looks and genderdirected advertisements), boys get told they're not real boys if they like to play house or cook or wear skirts. Or, gods forbid, like pink.
Does that mean it's right to keep believing toys or clothes only belong to one gender? (Or, in the case of boys' clothes, belong to both genders...) Or should it rather be an individual choice, no more right than wrong? =D

But that's not what this thread's about ^^

[Radacci]

Wh-

This is about being able to get the same amount of gear no matter if they are feminine looking or not in a video game, why is this turning into a 'gay isn't a choice' and 'being different is okay' kind of thing??
I just want my dude to be able to wear nice clothing, it doesn't have anything to do with sexuality or gender or whatnot, just that the devs stop being lazy.

because most gamers are male, and they don't think feminine clothing on their male characters, is nice: not much incentive to add it, since it takes time and money.
Would you like to spend a lot of time and money on a birthday party, and then only 2 ppl come?

[kyuven]

So.... They would catch more heat for giving women one outfit and men one outfit (as long as they are comparable, not like in the case of zetzer vs bunny).... than they would for giving women two outfits and men one outfit? Let's apply the same equality to other things. Female characters get two loot drops per week from Alexander, men get one. Or vice versa: Men get two rolls and women get one. I'm sure that would go over well =D

That's hyperbole, and a fallacy to boot.
Again, we're talking cost-benefit here. If they add the blue outfit for males and females, females will actually wear it (the pants look nice) as evidenced even now by the large number of female character's in the Best Man's attire (especially the shoes, which are quite popular as they go with a lot of other outfits). In contrast, there are not that many male characters choosing to glamour the Flame Elite's Loincloth or the spring skirt. (which I'd like to point out, came out BEFORE this gender-locking thing became an issue) Yes, there are people who do, but they are GROSSLY outnumbered by the number of male characters running around in other outfits up to and including the coeurl bathing suit and nothing else.
Thus, it makes sense to make the male outfit available for both genders, but the cost of making the female one available for both genders is simply not worth it.

because most gamers are male, and they don't think feminine clothing on their male characters, is nice: not much incentive to add it, since it takes time and money.
Would you like to spend a lot of time and money on a birthday party, and then only 2 ppl come?

Preach on.

Of course, most boys are going to choose male-labeled clothing and male-labeled toys and games. Because just like girls get told they're not real girls unless they like pink dresses and makeup (sometimes outright, sometimes merely through looks and genderdirected advertisements), boys get told they're not real boys if they like to play house or cook or wear skirts. Or, gods forbid, like pink.
Does that mean it's right to keep believing toys or clothes only belong to one gender? (Or, in the case of boys' clothes, belong to both genders...) Or should it rather be an individual choice, no more right than wrong? =D

But that's not what this thread's about ^^

It feels like you want to break down and change societal norms over a bellydancer costume.
Yeah that ain't happening, sorry. Gotta do something a bit more ambitious and play the long game to change societal perceptions.

[Ymal]

because most gamers are male, and they don't think feminine clothing on their male characters, is nice: not much incentive to add it, since it takes time and money.
Would you like to spend a lot of time and money on a birthday party, and then only 2 ppl come?

Idk does making X gear cost them more than making Y gear? Especially when talking about a gear set that is given to the players and not in cash shop? Those thread are getting a lot of support, and as I said SE has released a lot of gear that people happen to find ugly in general and that people never use.
I don't see them lose money with giving male the same amount of gear as they make for female, which is something that a lot of people have been asking for for what a year now at least. Unless you go on and tell me it's because men don't care about their appearance?
I really don't think you can predict what people are going to like just because of their gender or not... wouldn't that be being a bit sexist btw? Expecting taste and opinion from a person just because of their gender?

You guys keep acting as if SE had NEVER released any feminine gear for males in the game, am I going to have to make a list of how many skirts my character can wear or what?