Red Mage

[silentwindfr]

exept the enhanced shaman is not really a melee magic dps... more a melee with a bit of magic. and wow is not know for have the best balance around.

other point the shaman enhancement use mail armor and dual wield for be viable. most of him "spell" are instant cast or limited into utility.
Wow systeme allows this sort of jobs to exit by creating different spe that give totally new spell depending of what you choose. that not the case in FF14.

and i will say it againt a jack of all trade is nice into a solo game.... in MMORPG it's horrible. if they can't offer the same stuff than jobs that can only do dps, heal,... no one will want them, but if they can do all... why bring the jobs that can only do one thing? since we don't have a systeme of specialization... this sort of jobs is not possible

[Seku]

Small issue here...
FFXIV at the moment is setup with healer/tank/DPS setup in mind.

the only place there for RDM would fit in would be a healer+support role (sorry just don't see SE making this a DPS role) like BRD is a DPS+support role

You must have only played RDM in normal parties and never taken it to anything serious, because it was considered the best tank in the game for a long time in 11 and is why they nerfed it's ability to hold hate and everything else to hell and back when abyessa came out.

Second, rdm can fit into the game quite easily, a DoT job akin to summoner with light buffs, cures, and nukes. Give it Arancist's cross class skills. Done deal.

[OmegaNovaios]

RDM could make a very solid healer. Think about how WHM has cleric stance to switch between heals & DPS. RDM could have a melee version of the same thing. They could also have the normal Cleric stance for ranged magic too. This would arguably be the most classic implementation of RDM since all 3 features of RDM (heals, magic, melee) can all be reasonably represented and useful to the class.

It's not about RDM being a solid healer I have an issue with, but if that is its ONLY role I will NOT be playing my favorite job of all time. WHM is my least favorite job in FFXIV so I'd like it to not be exactly that but just at melee range.

[waifugenerator]

A true Red Mage wouldn't really work in XIV. They're great in single player FFs, and I guess XI (even though that was basically reduced to a refresh bot, which should be a WHM spell anyways)
There's no room for a RDM in the holy trinity, since they're a jack-of-all trades. I wouldn't even classify them as support unless you wanna go down the XI route.

[Seku]

A true Red Mage wouldn't really work in XIV. They're great in single player FFs, and I guess XI (even though that was basically reduced to a refresh bot, which should be a WHM spell anyways)
There's no room for a RDM in the holy trinity, since they're a jack-of-all trades. I wouldn't even classify them as support unless you wanna go down the XI route.

They were MT, Support, medicore nukes, and enfeebler's in 11. And yes they can fit in here. Though at the expense of killing off their physical damage, since weapons currently only have magical damage or physical on them,but not both.

But yet again, they can be a dot dps that has small nukes, cures, and a in battle resurrection like summoner and to off set not having a pet, give them the ability to buff their party members or stronger dot's.

Because atm SMN is acting as a red mage with a pet. As their able to do damage and if need be support their party with cures and resurrection. When their DoT's are up on all mobs, they go to pepper nuking, which is what a traditional Rdm did.

[ManaKing]

This game is centered around Tank/DPS/Healer, there is no mention of Support. That gets weaved into all of the different jobs. From what I can see, Machinist will be the job to watch to get an idea of what we can might expect out of RDM that is support themed. They seem to have more debuffs and non-healing support abilities than any of the current jobs. SCH is close as well if you consider fairy buffs on top of ACN abilities.

I'm not implying that RDM would be based on any of the previous job's playstyle or even buff/debuff because that is uniquely a FFXI idea. IF they are going to make RDM a TANK/DPS/HEALER that has more buff/debuff then we'll probably get a good idea of the kind of wiggle rooms that they can have with this expansion.

For all we know, RDM will be a Mystic Knight that is a pure damage dealer with almost no support abilities at all. Just magical swords and explosions.

If they are thinking about making RDM a tank...I think they already did it with DRK. Burn MP for more damage and utility. It would be silly to try making RDM a tank when any good RDM ideas could easily be the upgrades to DRK in 4.0.

And if they make it a Healer....I hope they have a really, REALLY good plan for how to make that fun.

---
The biggest reason not to make RDM in this game is left overs from FFXI. There are pro-melee and pro-caster RDMs from FFXI and neither are reasonable at this point because RDM was left to rot in FFXI. While neither Melee or Casting were effective in level appropriate content, people continued to play RDM because the job was self contained fun for soloing in older content that still had rewards. It would be hard to satisfy the fan base of RDM because you will inevitably disappoint a substantial percentage of the people that want to play RDM with whatever you put out before they even look at the job. Flaming trolls ready to riot regardless of whether it uses a sword, a dagger, a staff or rod.

Everyone agrees that a red triangle hat with a feather in it is super pimp and fashionable. But getting people to agree on anything else is like herding cats.

Just think of the negativity that came out when DRK was revealed to be a Tank. That will happen no matter what with RDM. Not very encouraging. On the other hand you could just put out SAM as either a Tank or DPS and everyone will be happy (Except those Y-Bow SAMs, always starting trouble).

If anyone was going to succeed at making a good RDM, feel like it would be this development team. However I don't know if they will be up for the task.

[ManaKing]

You must have only played RDM in normal parties and never taken it to anything serious, because it was considered the best tank in the game for a long time in 11 and is why they nerfed it's ability to hold hate and everything else to hell and back when abyessa came out.

Second, rdm can fit into the game quite easily, a DoT job akin to summoner with light buffs, cures, and nukes. Give it Arancist's cross class skills. Done deal.

What this game needs is another iconic fan favorite FF job that gets turned into a poorly balanced DoT job...

Because atm SMN is acting as a red mage with a pet. As their able to do damage and if need be support their party with cures and resurrection. When their DoT's are up on all mobs, they go to pepper nuking, which is what a traditional Rdm did.

There are already 2 ACN jobs that pretty easily cover what you would do with a RDM as a DoT job for both Healer/DPS. Why would you think that is even remotely a good idea from a game design stand point to continue duplicating that? You've literally already said that SMN is doing what you consider the job of a traditional RDM. Why would you ask for a redundancy?

Though at the expense of killing off their physical damage, since weapons currently only have magical damage or physical on them,but not both.

All weapons have both. Cast cure with a level 1 PLD sword. Now a level 50 one. Both numbers will be terrible, but the second on will be higher since curative magic is based off your magic damage on your weapons.

[Seku]

Refer to post where I'm pointed out.

1. Except SMN is pretty strong in many cases and it got butchered due to the fact they didn't put emphasis on summons. That and all jobs Incorporated DoT, so yes another DPS that focuses on DoT's would be a good fit for RDM as it would free them up to provided other utility to the party while still keeping up with damage. Or it's main focus can go to being a healer as well since SE seems to be pushing for Healers that can DPS too.

2. Because all jobs core priorities are the same, but they play different. By your logic there should only be one physical DPS, as all dps jobs have DoT's to keep up and rotations to follow, difference being they play different. Why would anyone ask for those redundancies?

3. edit: D= You win that one. Hidden stat it is.

[Akiza]

The Summoner is fillimg the Red Mage slot currently but in Heavensward they are suppose to focus on Dreadwrym Trance summoning and harnessing the power of primals. Red Mage is going to be the Melee DoT caster when it gets added and Summoner playstyle will be based around summomning the power of the primals and using their abilities bu absorbing primal aether.

[ManaKing]

1. Except SMN is pretty strong in many cases and it got butchered due to the fact they didn't put emphasis on summons. That and all jobs Incorporated DoT, so yes another DPS that focuses on DoT's would be a good fit for RDM as it would free them up to provided other utility to the party while still keeping up with damage. Or it's main focus can go to being a healer as well since SE seems to be pushing for Healers that can DPS too.

2. Because all jobs core priorities are the same, but they play different. By your logic there should only be one physical DPS, as all dps jobs have DoT's to keep up and rotations to follow, difference being they play different. Why would anyone ask for those redundancies?

3. edit: D= You win that one. Hidden stat it is.

1. Don't get me wrong, I play SMN and I like SMN. And generally the feeling I get when I play my SMN is that it's somewhat close to my RDM from XI. I like it more in some ways and less in others.

And yes, basically every job has DoTs, but the only job that gets their identity from their DoTs is SMN and SCH when you aren't healing. I mean, your Egi is just a persistent DoT spell that has a couple of extra features. If anything, I'm fine with calling my SMN an ACN instead because then it doesn't disappoint people who get too hung up on how THEIR SMN is supposed to be instead of just playing the job if you like it. If anything SMN is the proof that labeling matters to FF players. At least the ones that like to complain. While I want RDM, I don't want to make something called 'RDM' that isn't new or interesting just to be able to say that RDM is in the game. It would be better to design more diverse jobs that improve job choices and see if RDM is appropriate for one of them. If not, call it something else that is more appropriate.

I don't think they can make another DoT job without it being a rehash of Bane, Fester, and Contagion mechanics. If you look at BRD they literally just added those concepts to BRDs DoTs in the expansion. Another ranged caster that uses DoTs probably won't add any variety to the job line up.


2. There should be redundancies in what roles are filled by the various jobs since a full party has 2 tank, 2 healers, and 4 DPS. However those jobs shouldn't fill that role in the same way. The limit break gauge is intentional designed to foster this idea. MNK, NIN, and DRG all fill the role of a DPS and are melee, but their support abilities and the challenges that they face to get ideal DPS for the party are different. You pick the one you like to play, which you think will perform the best, or whichever one goes with the rest of your party comp if you are organized. I do personally find most of the DPS to be somewhat redundant at this point but they are making decent progress with what is being released in this expansion. They still might be cookie cutter, but it looks like it's getting better.

I'm not trying to get snippy but your description sounded like a current SMN, but without a pet. That sounds like less of a job than even current SMN. "a DoT job akin to summoner with light buffs, cures, and nukes" doesn't sound like it would play any different than SMN. It needs central mechanics that give it different advantages/disadvantages like Ninjitsu, Greased Lightning, Jumps, Astral and Umbral phases, Aetherflow. All of these require some kinds of maintenance to use effectively and if not used effectively, the job plays poorly.

RDM only had 1 thing that was uniquely theirs in the entirety of all the FF games they were in, and that is Dual Cast. That being said, Dual Cast only exists in games that have job systems and would then be taken and used on other jobs and thus RDM was a stepping stone for higher tier mages (FF5, FFTA, FFTA2). In FF3, they didn't have Dual Cast and were generally weak compared to almost every job and you generally moved on to something better. In FF1 they were solid because you couldn't change your party once you started and the job could auto attack deal reasonable damage while conserving MP, nuke to increase damage and hit elemental weaknesses by using MP, and cure. Jack of all trades was a strong and unique option because of flexibility in an otherwise inflexible job system. FFXI made RDM into something different but ultimately failed to deliver a job that balanced to the point that they were either required or useless depending on the content and expansion you were playing. Enfeebling was great in XI until they just turned it off one day and didn't give RDM anything else to compensate for it's loss.

If RDM doesn't have anything unique to offer a party or a unique play style, then I don't want it in this game. It would truly be a disappointment. Looking at what jobs the game has and doesn't have, I'd personally opt for RDM to be a Melee magical DPS. We have ranged magical DPS and physical DPS and we have melee physical DPS, but we don't have melee magical DPS. The point of them being melee is that they would have buffs and mechanics that would use you as the AOE point for their effects. I would love to steal Runic from Celes in FF6 and make it like the Anti Magic shield from the Midgarsormr fight or Flare Dampening from T13. You'd have to cover your allies with the shield so there would be risk/reward (avoid boss' frontal cleave, don't group up on the pepperoni, etc). I'd want them to have to use Runic effectively to replenish their MP so they could use higher cost nukes to increase their DPS. Some level of Enspells or Sword Magic from Mystic Knights would be a good start for keeping baseline DPS while dealing magical damage. You can fight melee with a sword/rapier/longsword/pointy-object with Sword Magic up with a TP combo for sustainable DPS or you could use a magic combo that uses MP instead of TP that deals more damage, but isn't sustainable. I'd also want Dual Cast/Double/Triple that I could cast on myself and others for extra boosts. I imagine that they are planning on adding double/triple to the game at some point for players to use and RDM could be a pretty solid fit. I'd love to be able to pair up with a BLM or SMN and have them do Double/Triple Flare or Ahk Morn/Deathflare or with healers for multi - Adlo or Medica.

I don't care if they call this Mystic Knight instead of RDM either. I just want something different than a bland caster RDM that doesn't bring anything to the party that someone else can already provide. I did that in FFXI, it wasn't very fun when the job became less desirable because it was easier to cripple RDM instead of rework enfeebling to balance the game. Enfeebling in this game is already a joke. Stuns, Silences, and Slows already don't work on ANY Boss worth mentioning. I don't want to set myself up for that happening again.


3. Yeah they do that. The good news is that means a job can do both physical and magical DPS. For all the jobs that are physical, their weapon's magical damage is roughly half of what an actual magical weapon would have at level. We can test this only because cure/physic is able to be used by jobs that aren't caster. There are no actions that are physical that can be used by casters so it's not really possible to know if they truly have physical damage stats or if their auto attack damage is generated solely by the auto attack stats and that they scale with STR and Det.

What does this mean for RDM? Well if you are pro-melee it gives you a niche to explore since you could do both physical and magical DPS. If you are going to be a caster it doesn't change anything.