New glamour dress on a male (art)

[Samcaesar]

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You linked men who look purposely bad in dresses for comedic value (With the exception of the first one, in which the guy, the girl's dad iirc, was wanting to make the little girl feel more comfortable wearing the princess outfit in public). The OP made a wonderful example of making the dress work on the male figure and their Elezen and I'm sure they could do it again (With the exception of maybe Roegadyn men, but hardly anything looks good on them unless if you like that sort of thing) and someone linked male bellydancer wear and again, it looks fine. If the OP can do it, why can't SE?

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And how do you suppose they add a "Turn off men in dresses" switch to the UI? As Eidolon pointed out, people don't like some folks in some outfits, where's my "Turn off guys playing as girl Miqo'te tanking in a bikini" option? Fantasia isn't a solid answer either, as someone pointed out "Fantasia to being a male PC" wasn't a valid response to those who use a female PC and wanted the gambler's set or the best man's set, so why is it here?

There's already options for men to wear skirts (Also, keep in mind last year's christmas set is also a dress) and silly outfits (Moogle set, most of the holiday's sets) so why the arbitrary cut off point with these options?

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And? SE ought to be above that sort of silly things. Considering I doubt same-sex marriage has 100% support in Japan, yet SE added it (Albeit under a different name)
Subcultures form from more than just counterculture, more so they are different from the norm, not that their interests aren't inline with mainstream culture and so they form communities. Yes there's rebels who do those things because they defy mainstream culture, but most of those are doing it because it's their personal interests, as rebelling to be different doesn't tend to last long. The OP plays a male PC and spent the time to make the dress work, I'm sure they're not the only one.

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You linked a girl who cosplayed to the point where they weren't just wearing Jack's outfit, but to look completely like jack. "fem" clothes are designed to cover breasts and otherwise emphasize the body while still maintaining hidden allure, which is totally possible with male figures, it just takes a little work. You know lots of cisgender women have similar body shapes to guys right? Heck the girl Roegadyn don't have a particularly feminine fugure, but the gear is still made to fit them.

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It's not exactly comfortable to wear a unfitted bra and thong for women. Whenever a bra is properly fitted (As it would be for male PCs) and you can deal with the constant wedgey a thong gives you, it's pretty manageable. Dudes wear skinny jeans all the time though.
It's more along the lines of "There will be specific fits and appearances that work for one body shape and not others", some pants are too small for the general person, so a company makes them larger, not too different in this.

Again, SE has options for men to crossdress already in the game, skirts and the christmas set (Which consisted of stockings and a dress), so they're effectively just arbitrarily decided not to make models for men to wear "female" clothes.

[kyuven]

And? SE ought to be above that sort of silly things. Considering I doubt same-sex marriage has 100% support in Japan, yet SE added it (Albeit under a different name)
Subcultures form from more than just counterculture, more so they are different from the norm, not that their interests aren't inline with mainstream culture and so they form communities. Yes there's rebels who do those things because they defy mainstream culture, but most of those are doing it because it's their personal interests, as rebelling to be different doesn't tend to last long. The OP plays a male PC and spent the time to make the dress work, I'm sure they're not the only one.

SE added it due to pressures over the issue from many different fronts, but had to go so far as to make absolutely sure it wasn't actually called "marriage." They even went so far as to have the moogle say he has no legal standing. This is the type of approach they MUST take towards issues like this. Sure it would be nice if they'd be "progressive," but their stockholders probably aren't, and "there's no such thing as bad publicity" is not really true when it comes to Japan.
To put that in perspective, there was a teenage pop star member of a very large group of other singers. She, like most teenage girls, started seeing a boy. Normal, right? Perfectly acceptable in our culture? Yeah, not so much in Japan. Their pop stars are expected to be "pure," and to not date at all. Being caught on a date with someone is basically career suicide.
She was so humiliated by the event, that she shaved her hair off and quit the group as "penance," but it didn't matter. There were death threats being sent to her on a regular basis. Oh, and she would've lost her job anyway since every last one of these girls is contractually forbidden from dating.
All this because she was doing something every single teenage popstar we have in the U.S. is pretty much ENCOURAGED to do by the tabloid media.
Can you imagine what would've happened if she had come out as transgender?

You're right. People who do it to be "counter" often drift away after a time. Which is precisely the point. See, Japan is pretty okay on the subject of homosexual relationships...but popular tradition and belief is that you "grow out of it," start a family, and start making babies (a stance that sadly has some justification these days as not enough people are producing children in Japan). Subcultures are the same way.
People who participate in things like Visual Kei and aren't making money directly from it have every expectation from those around them that their infatuation is a "phase" and they'll get over it. They're expected to, despite dressing like a a gothic victorian woman during college (the primary time in a Japanese person's life when they're allowed to participate in these sorts of things without much reprimand.) be dressing like a businessman by the time they're 21.
Now this is, of course, not always true. But since being a part of society, of "The Group," is such a huge thing, those who deviate are ostracized.
It gets to the weird point where people who actually DO make money off these things use stage names so their family isn't ashamed of them (seriously trying to find a non-politician in the public eye in Japan that isn't at the very least using different kanji for their name is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. AGAIN, not impossible, but not actively encouraged.)

Again, SE has options for men to crossdress already in the game, skirts and the christmas set (Which consisted of stockings and a dress), so they're effectively just arbitrarily decided not to make models for men to wear "female" clothes.

The christmas one isn't exactly "feminine," it's basically an elf outfit, "fey" (cuz, y'know, elves) but not completely feminine.
Which goes for all of the "cross dressing" options. They're designed for males and carry the "mystical" aesthetic to them, without being COMPLETELY feminine. As an example, the Evenstar outfits are nearly identical, but the male version doesn't have the feminine cleavage window, frilled skirt, and fishnets.
The scylla set? It's a robe, and fairly unisex really.
The skirt? Considering most people I've seen use it use it for things like the yukata or certain armor sets...and yeah a simple cloth skirt like that is NOT inherently feminine or masculine. It's when you start cutting it differently and/or adding accessories that it gains its masculine or feminine features.
Here's what i mean:


You don't look at the guy and say "that's feminine," since he's clearly not.
By the same token, you don't look at the girl and say "that's masculine."
This is because, despite wearing the same basic skirt, they're cut differently and accessorized in such a way that they gain masculine or feminine traits.
Since the Spring Skirt has no frills whatsoever to it, it falls under legitimately unisex.

And I stand by my "Not all clothing is unisex" stance because having different fits and cuts can and will automatically make certain articles of clothing into DIFFERENT articles. "Slim jeans" are generic, but there is a large difference between cuts for men and women to the point they have different names. As an example, if you cut a shirt one way, it become's a "Men's dress shirt." Take the exact same material and cut it a slightly different way, and it's fitted as a "woman's blouse." This has nothing to do with the design or any "societal norms." One simply fits better for one gender than the other. And if you try to take a woman's blouse and make it fit a man, it immediately becomes a "men's dress shirt" again

[Aeyis]

The skirt? Considering most people I've seen use it use it for things like the yukata or certain armor sets...and yeah a simple cloth skirt like that is NOT inherently feminine or masculine. It's when you start cutting it differently and/or adding accessories that it gains its masculine or feminine features.

That's incorrect, and largely biased on what the society you live in feels.
The only thing that makes something inherently feminine or masculine is when you have to design something (noticably) different to accomodate for differences in the male and female bodies.

Accessories etc have zero thing to do with that.

This has nothing to do with the design or any "societal norms."

It has everything to do with it.


You know what the first thing was that came to mind when I see the OPs pictures?
That looks too feminine.
What was the second thing, that came imediately after?
No, it doesnt. But it does make me consider why female clothing often has remarks of ''too much skin'', and why this can also apply to male clothing.

Then finally the third thought, when I was completely free from my own societal norms bias:
Wow, some of those colors look really good. And the design of those clothes is quite nice, on a male character.



And this is my line of thoughts reading the OP. I'm by all accounts a very open minded person but as it seems even then, still heavily effected by societal norms.




So again I'll say:

This has nothing to do with the design or any "societal norms."

It has everything to do with it.