So, even Wildstar is going f2p...

[silentwindfr]

wildstar error was to make a mmorpg with the hardcore as target, they always did appeal to them, even one of the last trailer was about how hardcore the game was... they did make everything complicate to get and player had a hard time to get access to some part of the content.... leading them away.

[Whocareswhatmynameis]

wildstar error was to make a mmorpg with the hardcore as target, they always did appeal to them, even one of the last trailer was about how hardcore the game was... they did make everything complicate to get and player had a hard time to get access to some part of the content.... leading them away.

I would disagree, their error was that they designed the game ONLY for the hardcore raiders. How many hardcore raiders do you think there are in WoW and FFXIV? In NA i would say 10% in JP i would say close to 20%.

If WoW and FFXIV were to ONLY make casual content they would prob lose about 20% of thier playerbase too. The reason these games are successful is they cater to BOTH playerbases. A wider net will always catch more fish.

[Catwho]

To use the theme park metaphor, a park with only roller coasters will appeal only to the 50% of theme park attendees who like roller coasters. You've effectively eliminated:
- Kids under 4ft tall
- People afraid of heights
- People with heart conditions or other medical conditions
- People who become easily motion sick
- Morbidly obese people who can't fit

I used to love coasters, but I got tired of them. Much like I used to like endgame content in MMOs, but I got tired of the rat race.

I think there is nothing wrong with a game that caters only to the most hardcore of the hardcore, but that's not the game for me, much like Nothing but Roller Coasters is a theme park I would like to attend.

[Gardes]

hardcore

hardcore

Did the marketing actually hit the mark though? From what I've seen around, actual hardcore groups tends to be very serious ("keep comms clear!" in voip serious) and the impression I got from the marketing and the dev previews are far from that. It was like the worst part of the chans and reddit condensed. Just pure cancer in marketing. I consider my coil group to be midcore at best but apparently we're part of the 4% (still can't really honestly say we're hardcore) and most of my group thinks the same way about wildstar: game made by dbags aimed at dbags (already mentioned this somewhere in this thread).

Then there's another thing. If the game markets itself as completely hardcore and makes no attempts to lure in casuals, shouldnt they be getting the hardcore players as majority from the very beginning? If the majority of the players the 'hardcore' game and then most of them quits because they couldn't make the cut, were they actually even hardcore in the first place? Is that not an example of mismatched marketing? How a hardcore game somehow got non hardcore players as the majority of their first batch of players?

[Whocareswhatmynameis]

Did the marketing actually hit the mark though? From what I've seen around, actual hardcore groups tends to be very serious ("keep comms clear!" in voip serious) and the impression I got from the marketing and the dev previews are far from that. It was like the worst part of the chans and reddit condensed. Just pure cancer in marketing. I consider my coil group to be midcore at best but apparently we're part of the 4% (still can't really honestly say we're hardcore) and most of my group thinks the same way about wildstar: game made by dbags aimed at dbags (already mentioned this somewhere in this thread).

Then there's another thing. If the game markets itself as completely hardcore and makes no attempts to lure in casuals, shouldnt they be getting the hardcore players as majority from the very beginning? If the majority of the players the 'hardcore' game and then most of them quits because they couldn't make the cut, were they actually even hardcore in the first place? Is that not an example of mismatched marketing? How a hardcore game somehow got non hardcore players as the majority of their first batch of players?

Ya i don't consider myself hardcore either lol, so I'm the same as you. I've watched a few of the raids in wildstar on youtube and ultimately they didn't seem that incredibly hard except for the fact they were like 40 man raids. Which pretty much would make them impossible. Trying to get 40 people together to not make any mistakes for 15-20 min at a time is borderline impossible :P

It would be kindof like if they made a 24-man final coil. But even that would be easier than wildstar

Ultimately developers are going to make the game they want to make, and that was prob the case. The developer was prob a hardcore WoW raider and wanted to make a game like that.

EDIT: also im not entirely sure wildstar was marketed as hardcore. At least this is the first i've heard of it that way, so I'm sure a lot of casual people got sucked in unkowingly. Just like FFXI was never marketed as hardcore, but had TONS of endgame stuff to do along with a bunch of more casual stuff.

[Mahri]

There are "hardcore" players who enjoy challenging themselves -- putting together pitch-perfect strategies, working with interesting stipulations, getting immersed, studying data and competing with one another.

See: Fighting game, RTS, or MOBA e-sports, world-first MMO raiders, speed-runners, and those who play notably difficult games with heavy self-imposed restrictions (i.e. a Dark Souls SL1 run), etc.

There are "hardcore" players who believe that sheer time investment and tolerance for tedium and repetition borne of having absolutely no real-life commitments or priorities entitle them to video game rewards that exist for the sole purpose of creating envy in others.

See: The people Wildstar's devs tried to cater to.

[Gardes]

EDIT: also im not entirely sure wildstar was marketed as hardcore. At least this is the first i've heard of it that way, so I'm sure a lot of casual people got sucked in unkowingly. Just like FFXI was never marketed as hardcore, but had TONS of endgame stuff to do along with a bunch of more casual stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbItL4qcugk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IeXYzqP8iU

Video of the devs talking about raids and pvp. They keep screaming hardcore but tell me if this doesnt sound like an ad for edgy 9 year olds.

[Whocareswhatmynameis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbItL4qcugk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IeXYzqP8iU

Video of the devs talking about raids and pvp. They keep screaming hardcore but tell me if this doesnt sound like an ad for edgy 9 year olds.

lol i see what you mean now. I only heard of the game from a youtuber called force, but he didnt mention any of this "hardcore" stuff lol. All i can say is those telegraphs make my eyes hurt and give me a headache. That's one of the things I loved about FCoB. Very little use of telegraphs.

[h0tNstilettos]

I'm actually shocked to see a thread like this considering FFXIV is the second most popular big name MMO of all time behind WoW and did it in just 2 years, which makes me quite happy as not only an MMO veteran of 15 years, but a FF fan as well. A pay to play MMO is typically considered stable enough to not go F2P if it has at least around 500k active subs. FFXIV at the end of 2014 had over 4 million accounts registered (not including free trials or free months), and only 1.8 million of those active, which is incredible for a pay to play MMO in this day and age. And given that during 2015 we've had many returning and new players due to Gold Saucer, and returning players for Heavensward plus the mass influx of new players from other MMOs, especially WoW, then there really isn't any reason to worry.

If you go to other MMO forums, even WoW's battlenet official WoW forums, and you'll see that here and there are numerous threads of players from those other games praising FFXIV and even saying it's better than the game you would think they'd be bias with, and the thread and any comment for FFXIV has tons of upvotes. One thread topic had over 100 upvotes. That's almost unheard of in any other MMO being praised on another MMO's forum as most tend to bash the other MMOs. Some have even called FFXIV the new WoW, and WoW's only competitor.

Sure, not everyone likes FFXIV just like not everyone likes WoW, and I doubt FFXIV will ever reach the same sub numbers as WoW considering today's MMO playerbase is more divided among many more MMO options than when WoW was in its glory days.

While everything I said might seem like an exaggeration, it isn't. In fact some people that aren't up to date on these things may reply to this and tell me I'm wrong or accuse me of being a fan girl. I actually keep up to date and do heavy internet research on what's trending with MMOs and popularity. I have even seen a poll on an un-biased forums to vote for the MMO they think is the best/like, including WoW, GW2, SWtOR, FFXIV, etc, and was shocked to see FFXIV won the poll as I actually thought more people would vote in favor of World of Warcraft. I also saw another poll asking for players to vote for which expansions from 2015 they were most looking forward to between GW2 Heart of Thorns and FFXIV's Heavensward and FFXIV won by a huge distance, and no this was not a biased poll posted on a FF site or forum. WoW's WoD was not included because the poll was after WoD and WoD was considered a major disappointment to the majority.

Basically to sum it up, you do not have to worry about FFXIV going F2P. I can say that with 100% confidence. If for whatever reason it did, it would not be for the same reason many other MMO's go free to play. Not to mention, Blizzard and SE actually use their own money to pay for their games without having to worry about investors, which means SE has a little more leeway anyways.

[Whocareswhatmynameis]

A pay to play MMO is typically considered stable enough to not go F2P if it has at least around 500k active subs. FFXIV at the end of 2014 had over 4 million accounts registered (not including free trials or free months), and only 1.8 million of those active, which is incredible for a pay to play MMO in this day and age.

I'm not entirely sure i would flaunt those numbers too much. More than half the people that bought FFXIV have unsubbed. There is still a lot of room for improvement IMO. The main thing helping this game right now is there are always lots of green sprouts joining every day.

This is another reason heavensward kind of worries me a little, because they are letting everyone do level 1-50 content at level 60. New players won't get the 2.0 experience we got, they are going to get something different entirely. I just hope it doesn't drive people away.