Primary cause of T5 Divebomb failures

[Kaelah]

We had a couple of people in our FC who did this, didn't quite get far enough in the ditch or were too slow when the db happens. In the end, we had another member show them another ditch they could stand in away from the rest of us. That way if they were targeted, they could still attempt to dodge but if they did get hit, it didn't wipe us all. We got them both through T5 this way. Just have anyone who struggles stand elsewhere near the edge for that portion of the fight.

[Itseotle]

But why did they flatten the arena then? I can't think of any other AoEs that could've been affected.

It was because of player attacks. From the Patch 2.2 notes:

The following issues have been addressed: An issue in “The Binding Coil of Bahamut – Turn 5” wherein, if the battle with Twintania takes place in an area where there is a steep difference in elevation, close range attacks may not be able to reach the enemy, in which case players must move in closer than normal for their attacks to hit.

And for discussion's sake, wouldn't it be the same difference then if everyone started outside of the pit, and then ran into the pit at the sound? (i.e. still run to her backside, but now she's baited to dive inwards) I would figure there'd be less room for positional error, and maybe higher risk of people running into the wall itself.

And it's been a long time since I've been in T5, but I recall misbaited dives knocking me backwards and sideways, into the wall.. Would a failed attempt in this scenario tend to move me away from the wall then?

This is because the AOE of Divebombs is actually larger than Twintania's hitbox. When a player gets hit by Divebomb, they are repelled in the opposite direction they are in relation to Twintania. So if Twin is Divebombing North, and your standing on her right (East) then you will get launched to the East, away from Twin. This is why you get repelled backwards on failed placement. If you are behind Twin, and since the Divebomb is bigger than Twin, you get hit and flung backwards. This is also why the strategy doesn't work in reverse, because players will move out of the Divebomb AoE when they run up the hill. Notice how those people who are slow to move get blasted out of the pit towards the center?

EDIT: For those people saying that spotting Twin during Divebombs is tricky, there is something here that you should play with to make it easier...

What I don't understand is why, contrary to every other battle up to T5, they didn't just add telegraphed AoE markers to the attack. That way we'd know exactly which direction it's coming from and have a far easier time dodging the thing.

I want to comment on this as well. If you look at the entirety of all the coils, you will notice that the "Gate Keepers", T5, 9, and 13, are the most demanding turns. They are done so to be more challenging because they are essentially the "Final Boss". If it were too easy, it would cheapen the experience of killing the "Final Boss". They are also there to not only test the things you have learned previously as a player, but to prepare you for the next series of coils/content.

[Amatsuhira]

Allow the camera to pan out twice as far as it does now and many mechanics become a joke.

[Nephisto]

I'm really not a hardcore gamer (I cleared all the Extreme Primals, some in cheap way, but I never tried T6-13), and it took me maybe a mouth to clear T5 (in PF), and I die once on this clear run, during the Twisters phase. In all my tries, the Divebombs phase was not the real problem, but the Twisters phase. So I don't know why people doesn't get the Divebombs phase after some try. Yes, I die during the Divebombs phase, but after few try, you get it. If I can get it, a lot of people can get it... Maybe try the trick of the tank (or off-tank) running with the snakes during the last three divebombs, if that's the problem...

[Dante_V]

If you are teaching people how to do T5, dive bombs in particular, having two stacks of Disseminate is definitely not the way to go leading into the divebombs. You are looking at a 50% damage increase from getting hit when someone messes up. Without the disseminate stacks it's very possible to survive and recover from a misplaced dive bomb marker so long as you aren't thrown into the wall. If the people you are playing with don't know dive bombs you shouldn't be killing the snakes in the pit.

[Lemuria]

It's so that you actually pay attention to the field and those around you; since you seem to hate the ditch method. None of the other divebombs in the coils have AoE markers either.

Except, no one bothers to do that. Instead we're using an exploit where you hide in a ditch so that you can FORCE divebombs to come from a specific direction. You can't even "pay attention" to everything around you, because the camera is terrible for it. If you took the time to focus on Twintania, you'd lose the focus on the rest of the enemies you need to fight.

Yet, it is also one of the most effective mechanics in the game. Instead of running around like headless chickens, you actually have to watch where you're going.

Define 'effective'. Effective at killing players? So are dozens of other attacks. You can't watch where you're going if you don't actually know where you've been. It's not like it gives you any visual indication that you've been there, so a lot of it is guesswork. I can scarcely even figure out how anyone worked out the mechanics of it to begin with.

Because having everything handed to you is kind of boring. It's fun to figure out mechanics as a team.

Except, only a handful of people actually worked this out, the rest of us just follow guides and do as we're told. I'll say it again, the ditch method is an exploit and is almost certainly not the way to beat the fight as intended by the developers.

The fact that no one has a workable alternative shows it's a poorly designed mechanic.

[Dante_V]

"poorly designed" is subjective, and I'd like to see proof to back the statement that this isn't want the "developers intended". That's you opinion.

We can say for a fact that the developers intended to kill people with dive bombs. That's the goal of the dive bomb. They intended to make a fight hard enough where people would have to develop team work strategies to defeat the mechanics. I'd say it's working as intended unless you can prove that the developers specifically do not want people to dodge dive bombs in the pit your post is nothing more than your opinion.

[AdamFyi]

I'll say it again, the ditch method is an exploit and is almost certainly not the way to beat the fight as intended by the developers.

You would think that the developers would've patched it by now if it was an exploit and not intended.

The fact that no one has a workable alternative shows it's a poorly designed mechanic.

There is an alternative method. The difference is that the other method requires the party to be more aware of where Twintania would dive from. The ditch method is just more efficient.

[Jim_Berry]

I've been in many, many T5 runs, and the primary cause of Divebomb failure seems to be this scenario:



Problem is, many people don't seem to get it when they are told to go deeper.

How do you teach people who repeatedly fail this, despite repeated instruction?

Sometimes, it's tough on melee. As a NIN, I sometimes need to step forward to hit the adds because the tank has not pulled into the pit all the way.

[GenJoe]

It could be easier if you weren't trying to cheese it with the pit way.

Yeah I wonder.. Because it's not like it hurts that badly, it's just the knock back that kills you when it knocks you into the wall.

So if people stand in line with enough spacing between to not all get hit, then healer just heals whoever gets hit, it could work just as easy I think.

Also, lot of the issue may be with console players, they don't have the means to easily manipulate the camera to see exactly how far they need to go, and moving with analog stick has the residual motion as opposed to a keyboard.