o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

[RathSkybreaker]

Call me stupid but it doesn't look like the part system is completely gone I mean it went from 6 parts to 4 >_> if anything more inventory space like most people wanted.

[Amineri]

Call me stupid but it doesn't look like the part system is completely gone I mean it went from 6 parts to 4 >_> if anything more inventory space like most people wanted.

It's partly a technicallity. The changed recipe has four materials. Cloth, yarn, leather, and metal nuggets/ingots/sheets are all materials.

Current system :
cotton boll ~> cotton yarn ~> cotton cloth ~> cotton robe front ~> cotton robe
cotton cloth ~> cotton robe back ~> cotton robe
cotton cloth ~> cotton sleeves ~> cotton robe

Proposed system :
cotton boll ~> cotton yarn ~> cotton cloth ~> cotton robe

To make matters worse, cotton cloth is a monster drop. That means the system changes from:


Current system :
cotton cloth ~> cotton robe front ~> cotton robe
cotton cloth ~> cotton robe back ~> cotton robe
cotton cloth ~> cotton sleeves ~> cotton robe

Proposed system :
cotton cloth ~> cotton robe

[Sorel]

Call me stupid but it doesn't look like the part system is completely gone I mean it went from 6 parts to 4 >_> if anything more inventory space like most people wanted.

This. We're complaining over semantics guys.

All the material for the new recipe still has to be crafted before you can make the final product. Just because the material doesn't have the word "part" in it's category name doesn't make it less of a part.

I invite you to look at this from a different point of view.

New Recipe (Hempen Doublet Vest)

• Undyed Hempen Cloth (Weaver-made Item)

  • Hempen Yarn (Weaver-made Item)

• Hempen Yarn (Weaver-made Item)
• Sheep Leather (Leatherworker-made Item)
• Copper Ingot (Armorsmith/Blacksmith/Goldsmith-made Item)

  • Copper Nugget (Blacksmith/Golsmith-made Item)

As you can see, even with this new recipe, some items still require a crafting step before the final synthesis (Hempen Cloth, Copper Ingot). Some items can also only be made by crafts outside the final synthesis craft (Sheep Leather, Copper Ingot).

So a final product (Hempen Doublet Vest) still requires multiple crafting steps AND multiple crafts to create it from beginning to end. The only practical difference between this new recipe and the old recipe is that the new one takes 6 synthesis steps before final synthesis, while the old one took 14 (I researched and counted them).

I guess some can call that "dumbing down", but in my estimation, I would call it "streamlining" ... and in my personal and humble opinion, I believe that this is an improvement.

[Tsukino]

[*]Copper Ingot (Armorsmith/Blacksmith/Goldsmith-made Item)

• Copper Nugget (Blacksmith/Golsmith-made Item)

The majority of ingots in the game likely come from leve rewards, because it takes five nuggets just to make one yet leves give you 12 at a time. Even if people are making ingots for grinding purposes, they'll always be worthless due to the sheer amount the game generates itself.

[DoubleEcho]

This. We're complaining over semantics guys.

You said this much better than me, thank you

[Amineri]

This. We're complaining over semantics guys.

All the material for the new recipe still has to be crafted before you can make the final product. Just because the material doesn't have the word "part" in it's category name doesn't make it less of a part.

I invite you to look at this from a different point of view.

New Recipe (Hempen Doublet Vest)

• Undyed Hempen Cloth (Weaver-made Item)

  • Hempen Yarn (Weaver-made Item)

• Hempen Yarn (Weaver-made Item)
• Sheep Leather (Leatherworker-made Item)
• Copper Ingot (Armorsmith/Blacksmith/Goldsmith-made Item)

  • Copper Nugget (Blacksmith/Golsmith-made Item)

As you can see, even with this new recipe, some items still require a crafting step before the final synthesis (Hempen Cloth, Copper Ingot). Some items can also only be made by crafts outside the final synthesis craft (Sheep Leather, Copper Ingot).

So a final product (Hempen Doublet Vest) still requires multiple crafting steps AND multiple crafts to create it from beginning to end. The only practical difference between this new recipe and the old recipe is that the new one takes 6 synthesis steps before final synthesis, while the old one took 14 (I researched and counted them).

I guess some can call that "dumbing down", but in my estimation, I would call it "streamlining" ... and in my personal and humble opinion, I believe that this is an improvement.

Cloth and Yarn are droppable items. They drop from ghosts. Given the every-increasing drive toward HQ items, and the fact that the easiest way to get +3 cloth and yarn is from a drop, the first two items in this example recipe will having nothing to do with crafting or gathering. Copper nuggets also drops from monsters (coblyns). Sheep leather does not drop from enemies, but buffalo leather (the most commonly used version) does.

Suddenly this synthesis looks like the following:
New Recipe (Hempen Doublet Vest)

• Undyed Hempen Cloth (Get +3 drop from ghost)
• Hempen Yarn (Get +3 drop from ghost)
• Sheep Leather (Leatherworker-made Item [for buffalo leather, get +3 drop from bandit humanoids])
• Copper Ingot (Armorsmith/Blacksmith/Goldsmith-made Item)

  • Copper Nugget (Get +3 drop from coblyn)

Given just the list above, you can see that there is pretty much no need for gathering. Cloth / yarn from drops. Sheepskin from drops. Copper nuggets from drops (or just purchase from NPC). Do you see where this is heading?

[Schubalts]

Given just the list above, you can see that there is pretty much no need for gathering. Cloth / yarn from drops. Sheepskin from drops. Copper nuggets from drops (or just purchase from NPC). Do you see where this is heading?

Why are you using materials that can drop from enemies to try and prove that gatherers will be eliminated? What is a more reliable source of copper, an enemy or a smith? Cloth and yarn? People with the money to buy from NPCs already do.

That's because that's a weaver item. Hempen is made from Moko Grass which is harvested in botany. However the lower demand for hempen isn't going to matter. What will matter is when recipes that smiths and CRPs make get changed. Those parts are made up of lumber and nuggets. Eliminate the parts, you eliminate the lumber and nugget requirements, which reduces demand for ores and logs.

The hempen doublet fronts use copper buckles, don't they? New recipe still uses copper.
Sheep leather parts are used in the old recipe. New recipe still uses sheep leather.

The only difference is the number of steps. The 3 materials (hempen *, sheep leather, copper) are the same. Why would smiths and carpenters suddenly not be needed?

[Amineri]

Why are you using materials that can drop from enemies to try and prove that gatherers will be eliminated? What is a more reliable source of copper, an enemy or a smith? Cloth and yarn?

I don't claim that gatherers will be eliminated. I simply point out that the two recipes are not "almost the same".

Upon reflection, it's possible that gatherers will not be affected all that much. Gathered items already are scarcely used for making finished products, because the goal with finished products is to make +3. For this purpose, combat drops are in nearly all cases far easier to acquire then doing the same via gathering, then crafting. For example [item=10002061]Bronze Chain[/item] +3 drops from skeletons. It is far, far easier to obtain this from a drop then from actually making the item.

Gathered materials are instead used primarily to grind up crafting ranks. For this purpose, the current recipes that are extremely simple are already used. These recipes are already along the lines of the proposed change. For example, [item=8010713]Yew Half Mask[/item] and [item=8010716]Walnut Mask[/item] are made from a single piece of lumber, and so are used nearly exclusively by carpenters to perform the tedious task of ranking up. These changes will bring all such recipes down to the same low common denominator, but they may not affect gatherers all that much.

What it will lead to is a drastic increase in the number of +3 items available. With simplified materials being used to create finished products, it will be far, far easier to acquire +3 pre-cursors to finished products, thus dramatically increasing the rate at which +3 items (of all types, as opposed to the few synths that were like this now) are created.

I'll reserve judgement for now as to whether a large influx of +3 items into the game is a good thing or a bad thing. I feel the need to ponder upon it.

[Sorel]

Cloth and Yarn are droppable items. They drop from ghosts. Given the every-increasing drive toward HQ items, and the fact that the easiest way to get +3 cloth and yarn is from a drop, the first two items in this example recipe will having nothing to do with crafting or gathering. Copper nuggets also drops from monsters (coblyns). Sheep leather does not drop from enemies, but buffalo leather (the most commonly used version) does.

Suddenly this synthesis looks like the following:
New Recipe (Hempen Doublet Vest)

• Undyed Hempen Cloth (Get +3 drop from ghost)
• Hempen Yarn (Get +3 drop from ghost)
• Sheep Leather (Leatherworker-made Item [for buffalo leather, get +3 drop from bandit humanoids])
• Copper Ingot (Armorsmith/Blacksmith/Goldsmith-made Item)

  • Copper Nugget (Get +3 drop from coblyn)

Given just the list above, you can see that there is pretty much no need for gathering. Cloth / yarn from drops. Sheepskin from drops. Copper nuggets from drops (or just purchase from NPC). Do you see where this is heading?

I see what you are saying. But those factors that you mentioned are external to the crafting system, and the crafting system ... particularly recipes ... are what we are talking about. If we were to factor in future external sources, then we'd also have to take into account that Hempen Doublet Vests can be bought outright, just like every part and ingredient in the game.

My analyses was of the recipes themselves. The new one is streamlined, and yes "simplified", but the recipe itself does still require multiple synths and items from multiple crafts.

Whether a player buys the ingredients, farms the ingredients, gets the ingredients from his LS, or gets the ingredients from a local levequest, is an external factor to the complexity of crafting the final product. It has very little to do with the recipe itself.

Right now, a Weaver can buy all the ingredients to craft a Hempen Doublet Vest in 1 synth, skipping the sub-synthing altogether. I could use that in an argument to say that buying parts is "dumbing down" crafting. But I don't because the buying is an external factor outside the recipe itself. But that means the same goes for gathering and monster drops that you mentioned. They're both irrelevant to the point, which is the recipe itself.

[Grim_Lion]

I just went to go HQ some [item=8070106]Iron Gauntlets[/item] for myself.... Ya, f-that. Would take a whole day just to +1 all the sub-mats to +1 the mats you need to use for the Gauntlets, unless you got them around (I dont myself). Im just on my lunch break right now.

Some simplification might be nice really. Especially down the road when there is more content than I have time for (/knockonwood). Crafting might be too involved for even someone like me who I consider a heavy player (70-80hr/week) if left the same down the road.

Im willing to at least see this out. Im sure there will be more to crafting after r50.