The whole Summoner "has been re-worked" is sad

[Akiza]

The problem is we haven't seen how the new abilities change the Summoner so it's impossible to make in argument about what needs fixing. Right now people are making an assumptions based on what little information they have and not coming up with reasonable solutions that can work within Heavensward. One suggestion based on Allagan Summoning is have a trait that temporarily transforms the player character into a Primal of their choosing and gaining the Primals skills. SE can also have the player temporarily transform into Bahamut while under Dreadwyrm Trance and gain his abilities.

[Yuri_Hyuga]

The problem is we haven't seen how the new abilities change the Summoner so it's impossible to make in argument about what needs fixing...

No, no, no. Just like with the NIN thread, counter-arguers are missing the point.

The issue many of us have with SMN is that it lacks emphasis on the summons themselves.

Dreadwyrm Trance is a pretty easy tell that they're not putting enough added emphasis (in our opinion) on the summons, but pushing more emphasis on the master's magical capabilities.

With NIN, it's the principle that they're applying positionals to a Job pitched as being that which wouldn't rely on positionals.

Again, super easy to glean without requiring add'l. details that they're taking these Jobs in directions we (those who argue on my side) dislike.

[thunderbreak]

We can argue/discuss/ask for tweaks, additions or whatever, but SMN is SE's to portray how they want in their game.

Yeah, it's too bad Yoshi P himself disagrees with you.

[SDaemon]

Yeah, it's too bad Yoshi P himself disagrees with you.

Not really, that doesn't counter what I said. "Don't forget your roots. It's what the fans crave." Please justify how that statement means Yoshi disagrees with me.

[Yuri_Hyuga]

Not really, that doesn't counter what I said. "Don't forget your roots. It's what the fans crave." Please justify how that statement means Yoshi disagrees with me.

He means FFXIV SMN is nothing like past titles' SMN's... not even remotely, which' true; means, roots have been forgotten in his mind (many agree, tons of FF fans hate this rendition of SMN for that very reason).

[SDaemon]

He means FFXIV SMN is nothing like past titles' SMN's... not even remotely, which' true.

FF10 SMNs isn't like FFT SMNs. FF11 SMNS isn't like FF4 SMNs. FF11 NIN isn't like FF1 NIN. Fail to see how that slide that says "Don't forget your roots, It's what the fans crave" with regards to XIV, means that things in XIV need to be like what player A wants explicitly from FF10 or player B wants explicitly from FFT. The reality is that SE (Yoshi) has the say on what XIV SMNs do and are portrayed as.

[Yuri_Hyuga]

FF10 SMNs isn't like FFT SMNs. FF11 SMNS isn't like FF4 SMNs. FF11 NIN isn't like FF1 NIN. Fail to see how that slide that says "Don't forget your roots, It's what the fans crave" with regards to XIV, means that things in XIV need to be like what player A wants explicitly from FF10 or player B wants explicitly from FFT. The reality is that SE (Yoshi) has the say on what XIV SMNs do and are portrayed as.

Overarching core/emphasis has always been on grandiose summons or at least decently-powered summonable creatures.

Egi's been a pewny fragment of a primal & the classes design much more centered on the Summoners' magical capabilities rather than commanding on summons is where the discrepancy lies.

All previous iterations of SMN in FF titles kept the core/spirit of the Job intact, this variant heavily dismantles it.

Plenty of ways SMN could easily be reworked to put more emphasis on the summons themselves, but our one glimpse into Heavensward demonstrates a further deviation from that ideal.

[Nestama]

And if SMN's were like as they were in previous Final Fantasy games, they'd just be a Black Mage with flashier attacks and ONLY use the strongest summon.

[Nalien]

Dreadwyrm Trance is a pretty easy tell that they're not putting enough added emphasis (in our opinion) on the summons, but pushing more emphasis on the master's magical capabilities.

To be honest, I'm fine with the Dreadwyrm Trance, because that seems more like the original Summoner Job to me. You summon Bahamut, he Ahk Morns bitches, then goes away. OK you're not summoning the full Bahamut, but that fits with the games lore. If that head is effectively Bahamut-Egi, I'd say it's more impressive than the current Egis (and I never really had a problem with them anyway). It's still putting emphasis on the summon, it just isn't a persistent summon, but until FFX Summoners never had persistent summons anyway.

I actually wish Summoner was more like that with the rest of the summons. Just forget the whole physical pet aspect and give me Inferno, Vortex, Tremor, Tidal, Judgement and Diamond stacks. Even add the Elemental Wheel back in in some form; Vortex stacks reduce Inferno stacks, Inferno stacks reduce Diamond stacks, Diamond stacks reduce Vortex stacks (XIV has more of two elemental triangles, for anyone wondering why this isn't the same as XIs/most other wheels). That way, rather than having eight stacks to manage (Aether, these six, and Dreadwyrm), you have half that as you can only build two of the elemental ones at the same time, trying to build both Vortex and Inferno at the same time will just waste Inferno, etc. Then just make Enkindle actually impressive by removing that Elemental Wheel aspect for a short duration, allowing you to build up all stacks at the same time and time using the skills in quick succession. Quite a few things they could do with that concept, and it kind of adds to the whole Tri theme they had going on with Tri-Disaster. Give it some skills to force a rotation (You're building Inferno stacks, use skill, suddenly they're Vortex stacks), make it so some of the Primal skills aren't damage based and things could be interesting. Everyone about to take lots of damage? Force yourself into Tremor stacks and provide some mitigation with Titan. Nothing too powerful of course, something more on the same level as DPS throwing out Mantra.

I should stay away from Summoner threads, they just end up making me think of multiple ways I'd prefer the Job...

And if SMN's were like as they were in previous Final Fantasy games, they'd just be a Black Mage with flashier attacks and ONLY use the strongest summon.

I doubt it would be that simple. Would it effectively just be like Black Mage? Perhaps, but they simply wouldn't balance it so you only spam the strongest summon. Every DPS in this game has a fairly strict rotation, Summoner would be no different if its summons were effectively just nukes. You wouldn't spam Aerial Burst back to back just the same way you don't spam Flare constantly on Black Mage.

[Seiryuukishi]

I have been leveling Summoner and at level 40 I can say there is a lack of burst. Do not get me wrong, I love this job, so much so I decided to make it my main over Dragoon and for me that is saying a lot. I do not know what they have planned outside of what they showed us and Akh Morn looks cool to me, but I have an idea that could add burst but get the Egis involved. Thus, hopefully, making most happy.

The idea itself simply revolves around pet control commands Rouse, Spur, and Enkindle and their respective cool downs, player control, and situational awareness. In short it requires a trait or toggle skill. Let me break it down:

Spur: Pet's physical and magical damage is increased by 40%. Cool down: 2 minutes

Rouse: (For the sake of this we'll focus of damage gain) damage dealt increase 40%. Cool down: 1 minute 30 seconds

Enkindle: Commands Pet/Egi to use signature attack. Cool down: 5 minutes

The problem is not so much that the Summoner itself is totally incapable of burst as a whole, it is that it is incapable of doing so effectively. If, under ideal conditions, you got all buffs/DoTs up to do it you would still need to wait five more minutes to make it worth while again because of Enkindle's cool down. If we had a trait or toggle skill that would either allow the cool downs respectively to share the same as the lowest timer(Rouse), or for that matter two minutes altogether for the three of them. Then burst could be a far more viable thing for Summoner no matter Ifrit or Garuda. It's just a thought.