Tanks thrown out of farms for low DPS?

[Elusana_Celah]

words

I still consider extra DPS done by healers or tanks as going "above and beyond". If I can tank a fight perfectly, handle mechanics, adds, cooldowns and all that and someone's gonna make a stink cuz my parse is 150 points or 200 points too low I'm just gonna be yeah... I ain't equipping strength gear and going into sword oath and what not with a pickup group full of healers I don't even know or trust. If the healers are good and don't mind working twice as hard to heal me then sure.

Even so, who decides what is acceptable DPS for a tank? People who spent millions on BiS crafted gear, penta melds and farmed the perfect items and put it all together who can get 480-500 on a paladin or warrior? We can get into a very gray area when the DPS expectations are set to unrealistic expectations for the 'majority' of players.

Yes I am aware that I can simply 'not join' a party finder with 'rules' I do not agree with. I don't jump over to the forums to write a post like this unless I want to feel out the general community opinions on these kinds of requirements. I don't and never plan to argue with someone over party finder requirements I just don't join them, but I still take interest in community opinions so this post was made, thank you.

[Zaft]

Even so, who decides what is acceptable DPS for a tank? People who spent millions on BiS crafted gear, penta melds and farmed the perfect items and put it all together who can get 480-500 on a paladin or warrior? We can get into a very gray area when the DPS expectations are set to unrealistic expectations for the 'majority' of players.

Every group is going to have their own requirements and demands. If one of those is that the tank sustains "x" DPS, then that's just their thing. You can always choose to not join them.

[Elusana_Celah]

Every group is going to have their own requirements and demands. If one of those is that the tank sustains "x" DPS, then that's just their thing. You can always choose to not join them.

Never thought of that! Thanks! Wish I thought of that before making this thread to have a discussion!

GMs, we have a /thread here. Close it please!

[Khemorex]

mmh , if someone is measuring the dps with a 3rd app , id say report and move on :P

I mean u can very well see if someone is not performing as they should , and thus kicking someone out of the group afterwards.

But if someone says ur doing 50 dps to less as Warrior and kick you out because of it, id just report and move on.

(well i didnt reported anyone yet coz it never happens to me , but ill probably just move on and blacklist this people :P )

[Cyrus-Wallace]

mmh , if someone is measuring the dps with a 3rd app , id say report and move on :P

Nah, reporting someone using a parser because he told you your DPS is low, is a lame move. I wouldn't compromise his account because I'm b**thurt. As you suggested later on, blacklist and move on. Or just let them be, it's their playstyle after all. If there're such standards around, it's because is somewhat possible to reach that goal (let's say, a high tank DPS). Research and try to achieve that goal. If it's a future requierement or not, you'll help your group a lot by going beyond your role.


As a tank myself, I'm very concerned about my DPS and my survivability at the same time. I always ask at the end of the encounter what my DPS was. It's like a healer that does DPS. They gotta cure and deeps at the same time, but they have it more tough. Sometimes, you might requiere to eliminate the primary mitigation/buff source (Stance dancing, turning Defiance off) to achieve that goal... and yes, as some people commented, it requieres yo you understand the fight as a whole. With knowledge by your side, you know when 1 cooldown is enough, despite the stance you are on or when there's no damage at all. Know the damage output. Know when you have enough HP and when you're over the "cap", based on previous experiences. With that said, if you have 12k of HP in T13 for example, you know it's pretty much an overkill. Sacrifice some VIT accesories with STR accesories if you don't have pentamelded ilvl 110 already.

It makes things more fun, it gives you an additional goal besides just tanking and using cds. If you're in a farming group, which is not a clear/progression/learning, you'll be expected to do your best, so you can increase the farm rate of the group. Hence, it's something that benefits all the group, not only you.

And because I read the whole OP, and you're looking for other's opinions. I think it's okay. That's nothing crazy, really. Personally I wouldn't never request such thing, but I would /nod if somebody ask me to do it. Mostly because you, as a tank, are actually DPSing. There're no actions that requiere you to stop the DPS output. Unlike the healer who has to stop his primary function in order to DPS. However, it's the first time I read about it and I play in Gilgamesh, which is a raid-oriented server. Tanks shouldn't be THAT concerned about it if it's not a party requirement, but I think you should always give your extra, specially in raid content. Keep in mind that it might open a new door for you, because people will like it. You'll receive more invitations for farming groups and future progression groups.

[TetsuyaHikari]

Probably the same reason why healers could possibly be kicked for not DPSing when possible. If you have the means to do more damage, but you're holding back for some reason, you're slowing down progression for the party, thus the problem. I joined a T12 group last night and began wondering why we were pushing 5 bennus since 4 seems to be the norm.

Turns out our BLM wasn't using Raging Strikes because, and I quote:

"I was afraid I'd pull Phoenix off the tank."

Since this person was a WAR though, he really doesn't have much of an excuse if he's not oozing STR from his pores since that's what they are built for, so I could definitely see the problem with a WAR not carrying his own weight. He probably just dumped more accessories and points into VIT, but that's a bit excessive since WAR already has enough HP as it is, lol. Hell, I had to swap out some VIT accessories and points for STR as PLD because I realized I had more than enough HP for this turn and we were always behind by like 1-2% for the phase change in this T12 group last night, so we always ended up getting 5 bennus instead of 4.

Now, my usual static always pushes 4, even with my VIT build, but I just sacrificed some VIT, since I knew I could spare it, for some STR in order to help push a little better. Now that will help and I'll be less of a liability when it comes to DPS in a party, even though I'm a tank.

[Zumi]

Probably the same reason why healers could possibly be kicked for not DPSing when possible. If you have the means to do more damage, but you're holding back for some reason, you're slowing down progression for the party, thus the problem. I joined a T12 group last night and began wondering why we were pushing 5 bennus since 4 seems to be the norm.

Turns out our BLM wasn't using Raging Strikes because, and I quote:

"I was afraid I'd pull Phoenix off the tank."

Since this person was a WAR though, he really doesn't have much of an excuse if he's not oozing STR from his pores since that's what they are built for, so I could definitely see the problem with a WAR not carrying his own weight. He probably just dumped more accessories and points into VIT, but that's a bit excessive since WAR already has enough HP as it is, lol. Hell, I had to swap out some VIT accessories and points for STR as PLD because I realized I had more than enough HP for this turn and we were always behind by like 1-2% for the phase change in this T12 group last night, so we always ended up getting 5 bennus instead of 4.

Now, my usual static always pushes 4, even with my VIT build, but I just sacrificed some VIT, since I knew I could spare it, for some STR in order to help push a little better. Now that will help and I'll be less of a liability when it comes to DPS in a party, even though I'm a tank.

That is a dps problem not a tank not doing enough dps problem. Both of our FC tanks use full vit set ups 6 months ago when this was progression content and we always got 4 bennus. Now with echo you should get 4 no matter what if anytihng it is dps doing not enough dps which is the problem.

[TetsuyaHikari]

That is a dps problem not a tank not doing enough dps problem. Both of our FC tanks use full vit set ups 6 months ago when this was progression content and we always got 4 bennus. Now with echo you should get 4 no matter what if anytihng it is dps doing not enough dps which is the problem.

DPS problem =/= tank problem

If the tank can do more damage to help contribute to progression, then they should. Yes, ultimately the DPS should be using proper rotations for maximum damage output, but the tank isn't given a free pass simply because they only focus on positioning and eating whatever the boss (or adds) throws at them. By your logic, it's perfectly okay for a SCH to not contribute to DPS if the party is behind on a phase change by a couple of percent or so. Clearly since it's just a "DPS problem", then only the DPS jobs have a means to fix it.

This is not always the case.

[Elusana_Celah]

Clearly since it's just a "DPS problem", then only the DPS jobs have a means to fix it.

If I'm in a pickup group and I'm being required to go above and beyond as a tank or a healer just to compensate for bad DPS I'm going to take my leave and find a better group. Not everyone shares your "Just pickup the slack so you can get it done" mentality.

[TetsuyaHikari]

If I'm in a pickup group and I'm being required to go above and beyond as a tank or a healer just to compensate for bad DPS I'm going to take my leave and find a better group. Not everyone shares your "Just pickup the slack so you can get it done" mentality.

I'm not saying "pick up the slack and get it done". I'm saying whether you have bad or good DPS is irrelevant. You should be trying to do your best regardless and if you can afford to shave off some VIT on your build for more STR to get more damage in, you should do it to help your party one way or another. A DPS that performs badly due to terrible rotations is one thing... They're simply ignorant.

You're even worse than they are if you acknowledge the fact that you have holes in your performance, but simply refuse to do anything about them.

EDIT:

Tanks and healers doing good DPS is going above and beyond their jobs.

Tanks are there to keep aggro on enemies, position everything correctly and make sure the party is safe (as far as tanking can keep them safe. Unavoidable raid damage, DPS derping to Divebombs or not running out of cleaves when dodging Nerve Gas is not a tank issue).

Healers are there to heal, keeping the tanks alive so they can do their job, healing up unavoidable raid damage and healing derpy DPS who dodn't know how to avoid easily avoidable damage

Noooooooow we're getting somewhere. Yeah, I see players like you a lot running around Mor Dhona. Hell, there are plenty of people in the real world that behave this way too.

If their job description doesn't include doing something else, they're not going to do it (most of the time anyway) unless there's some kind of reward for doing so. I can't tell you how many healers I've seen that simply wanted to be just a healer and heal throughout the whole battle, despite having the MP to contribute to DPS. I have more respect for players that are willing to go above and beyond their jobs in order to accomplish their goal.

If you're fine with just being another healer, good for you. You'll leave more of an impression though if you're a healer that not only heals, but pops Cleric Stance to DPS when possible, then switches back to healing when necessary. It says a lot about you as a player and a person when you are willing to do more than what is required of you for the sake of others.

Personally? I try to better myself in any way I know how in order to help the party out, even if it's only a little bit. Nothing states I have to pop Shadow Flare on the boss every time it wears off. I could just sit back and pop Adlo and Physick the whole time while standing in the background with well over 3,000 MP, even halfway into the battle, simply because I haven't been using any DOTs or Cleric Stance + Ruin II. Now, don't try to sit there and say Shadow Flare, Ruin II, and DOTs are "part of the job". SCH is specifically classified as a healer, so according to your logic... Any SCH that applies DOTs and all of that is apparently going above and beyond their job since their job is a healer.

Do you also give tanks shit for applying Stoneskin during battle even though it has nothing to do with tanking? A good player learns how to adapt to a multitude of situations using all of their tools at their disposal while a bad player limits themselves despite having multiple options for multiple situations.