Why I Decided to Become an Elitist

[Skivvy]

That was kind of what this entire thread was all about, people who don't like the way something is phrased refusing to listen and calling people elitist.
If someone is giving you advice, pay less attention to how they say it and more attention to what they say. Too many people in the game get upset and either refuse to listen, or just lash out.

Except for the fact that the OP typed up a novel making it sound like the world was against the poor elitists*, that they are the true victims due to having to deal with the dirty casual folk who laugh at the constant failures in games , have no desire to better themselves, who merely want handouts, who won't bother trying to better themselves. The struggle! It was a poorly written, and very sensationalized piece of work. And it got a lot of bandwagoners.

It was not a nice post asking people to show respect to their fellow player. Perhaps to put a little move effort from BOTH sides into making things work when put together in a duty, it was an attempt to make a certain group feel better at the expense of another. All the while throwing jabs at those less skilled.

And then even yourself:

So the lesson here is that both groups seem to be fed up with each other. The difference is that elitists are perfectly happy just grouping up with each other, while everyone else wants to group up with elitists. (So long as they shut up and carry them without complaining.)

Once again implying that the elitists* are perfectly fine and happy, but it's everyone else that is causing the trouble.

That was kind of what this entire thread was all about, people who don't like the way something is phrased refusing to listen and calling people elitist.

If someone is giving you advice, pay less attention to how they say it and more attention to what they say. Too many people in the game get upset and either refuse to listen, or just lash out.

And you are still passing the blame onto the non-elitist* claiming it's their fault for not taking the advice well, they're the ones lashing out. As if the elitist* knows best, and should be able to control everyone else in all situations.

It is so much than one small example.

I would love for you to go through this thread and dig out all the people who preached respect for all players. You'll find that the amount of people with this message were far outnumbered by those bashing on the other side.

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Story time : Note, this actually happened to me.

I was running Labyrinth one day for a weekly and I noticed as we reached the armor that no one was keeping the pots alive.

Me : Guys, we need to keep the pots, or at least one of them alive. If we don't we'll wipe.
Alliance member : Don't tell me how to play the game, I pay every month and I'll play how I want.
Me : I'm not telling you how to play, I'm telling you that keeping at least one pot alive is the bare minimum standard for clearing this fight.
Alliance member : Having ANY standards is elitist!
Me : Then you need to take it up with SE, because it's a standard they set.

That wasn't even the first time that day I'd been called an elitist, or even the silliest reason for it. I felt a lot the same way as the OP at that moment : "Screw it, if knowing what to do makes me an elitist well I guess I'm an elitist".

Anecdotal evidence doesn't help here. There are also plenty of stories to be found of elitists* screaming at people over nothing. We all have stories to share. But in the case of your example, sounds like they were screwing with you. Labrynth is a troll fest. Welcome to the party.

*I am using their term. In no way to I think a skilled player is the same as an elitist. Tired of splitting hairs.

[Kiroh]

Except for the fact that the OP typed up a novel making it sound like the world was against the poor elitists*, that they are the true victims due to having to deal with the dirty casual folk who laugh at the constant failures in games , have no desire to better themselves, who merely want handouts, who won't bother trying to better themselves. The struggle! It was a poorly written, and very sensationalized piece of work. And it got a lot of bandwagoners.

You know as well as I do that there are absolutely people out there who have no desire to better themselves and refuse to take any advice. There are only so many times a person can be expected to tolerate being attacked because they're trying to give someone advice, I understand where the OP's frustration with this is coming from.

There are also a lot of people who post on the forums exactly the same thing with the roles reversed and all you hear is people cheering them on. "Yeah, screw elitists! They don't run the game!", but when someone is tired of wiping to a mechanic they've already explained 10 times and leaves the group it's "Why do people always drop? How am I supposed to get this done if no one is willing to run it for me! Learning groups take too long to form!" and again all they get is praise. If you even suggest they should try to watch a video or practice in DF or start a learning group, you're suddenly the worst thing since Hitler.

So when people experience exactly this kind of abuse we should suck it up because "Oh they were probably just trolls" or "that's just anecdotal personal experience that you've been through several times a month, our experience is more valid."

I'm glad the OP posted this, because honestly a lot of the people who cry "elitist" are people who treat other players like their personal paid clear groups.

[Brill_]

If you even suggest they should try to watch a video or practice in DF or start a learning group, you're suddenly the worst thing since Hitler.

So when people experience exactly this kind of abuse we should suck it up because "Oh they were probably just trolls" or "that's just anecdotal personal experience that you've been through several times a month, our experience is more valid."

Let me share tonights experience. I started a T9 TRAINING party in PF. It was listed as a training party. After 90 minutes, we finally get 8 people. Go in, we eventually wipe and one of the elitists start going off on people not knowing the fight. He rage quits and the party ends up disbanding. Not once did he explain to anyone what they did wrong. It's these experiences are why people can't learn fights, because none of the elitists will give people a chance to learn. They sabotage training parties and expect perfection.

[Kiroh]

Let me share tonights experience. I started a T9 TRAINING party in PF. It was listed as a training party. After 90 minutes, we finally get 8 people. Go in, we eventually wipe and one of the elitists start going off on people not knowing the fight. He rage quits and the party ends up disbanding. Not once did he explain to anyone what they did wrong. It's these experiences are why people can't learn fights, because none of the elitists will give people a chance to learn. They sabotage training parties and expect perfection.

It's entirely possible that he was someone who didn't have the clear but knew more of the fight than you did and was frustrated because you didn't reach the part of the fight he actually needed "training" on.

Still, people in this thread have time and again stated and I feel it should be re-iterated : We don't expect perfection, but we do expect effort and some modicum of improvement. If you did both of these things and the person still left, then I'm very sorry you encountered a jerk when you were trying to do everything right. No one should verbally abuse you either, I'm sorry to hear that and I sincerely hope you reported them.

Or could have been as easily someone who didn't have a clue, didn't read the description and joined expecting a one-shot carry also.

This is true also.

[Brill_]

Still, people in this thread have time and again stated and I feel it should be re-iterated : We don't expect perfection, but we do expect effort and some modicum of improvement. If you did both of these things and the person still left, then

There was no chance for improvement because all this happened on the first wipe. Second, yes, elitists expect perfection. Thats why we see tons of PF that say "1 wipe = kick" Thats why people rage quit from a training party after 1 wipe, because all the elitists expect perfection.

[Purrfectstorm]

all the elitists expect perfection.

That's called a hasty generalization and it's a logical fallacy.
http://www.onegoodmove.org/fallacy/hasty.htm

[Kiroh]

There was no chance for improvement because all this happened on the first wipe. Second, yes, elitists expect perfection. Thats why we see tons of PF that say "1 wipe = kick" Thats why people rage quit from a training party after 1 wipe, because all the elitists expect perfection.

Most of the people who start groups like that are not elite players, they're people who expect everyone else to be perfect so they don't have to put in any effort. They're people who want a carry.

Second, I guarantee you not one person who considers themselves "elite" expects perfection. (Except perhaps from themselves*)

And lastly, shutting down any attempt at understanding and painting everyone with the asshole brush is exactly why a lot of high-tier players don't even bother helping newbies anymore.

[Sapphic]

It's entirely possible that he was someone who didn't have the clear but knew more of the fight than you did and was frustrated because you didn't reach the part of the fight he actually needed "training" on.

Still, people in this thread have time and again stated and I feel it should be re-iterated : We don't expect perfection, but we do expect effort and some modicum of improvement. If you did both of these things and the person still left, then I'm very sorry you encountered a jerk when you were trying to do everything right. No one should verbally abuse you either, I'm sorry to hear that and I sincerely hope you reported them.

Or could have been as easily someone who didn't have a clue, didn't read the description and joined expecting a one-shot carry also.

[Davester]

Let me share tonights experience. I started a T9 TRAINING party in PF. It was listed as a training party. After 90 minutes, we finally get 8 people. Go in, we eventually wipe and one of the elitists start going off on people not knowing the fight. He rage quits and the party ends up disbanding. Not once did he explain to anyone what they did wrong. It's these experiences are why people can't learn fights, because none of the elitists will give people a chance to learn. They sabotage training parties and expect perfection.

i am sorry but what you are describing is really just a troll/jerk/whatever have it,what happens when you call everyone an elitist like that is you just make the word more open for abuse.Oh so you've clearly wiped us on purpose ELITIST JERK,oh so you are refusing to heal dps,ELITIST JERK,and eventually it reaches what it is now,just a name to call everyone doing anything bad,and then by others as a word to use for anyone doing anything in a manner they don't like
also one interesting interesting thing to note,no matter how much the players say elitists are jerks,call everyone names and just in general ruin the experience,it's not very often that you hear filthy casual used as a serious insult in comparison to elitist jerk,or have said elitists make as many stereotypes about others as there are about them(from pooping in socks to living in mom's basement)even reaching the levels of counting things such as playing for long times(which by all means should be applauded cause it's dedication)as a bad thing(for example:EFFIN NO-LIFE ELITIST JERK)

[Gardes]

I honestly don't know why people are hating on the jerk 'elitists' when they wouldn't even care about all this discussion to begin with. They wouldn't see the need to discuss all this in the forums to explain themselves. You can probably even leave them alone in their own bubble.

Personally, I used to give out instructions to players who need it in dungeons and primals (sometimes even on basic class functions) but I don't put it with pretty words. I just go straight to the point, like a telegram, because I don't like to keep other people standing and waiting. Makes sense no?

In this pic (right click image and click on view image), it actually went well. People were receptive and listened and we managed to clear AV but most of the time people just ignore me when i type like this and also plenty who cussed out at me and some even retaliated with doing the exact opposite of what I tell them out of spite even if it means failure. Sometimes the one who gets rude is not even the one I'm giving instruction to. A GM hasn't come running for me yet but why should I risk it or even deal with any abuse for typing out helpful instructions? I've since stopped saying anything to randoms and just leave if the situation is hopeless (speaking up? that's harassment!).

You can argue with me that some bad apples shouldn't stop me from being helpful to the innocent casuals but it doesn't seem worth it anymore. I've completed most of the combat content with my own FC first. Anything I do without m FC won't be that urgent anymore and when there are people who need the clear but also working against their own clear (not accepting advise/criticism, harassment fear mongering, intentionally playing poorly to bait people into admitting using parser, etc), it just doesn't seem worth the hassle. When you have your own side (the ones who still need clears) actively working on turning away helpful veteran players, you're only going to get the asshole veteran ones.