Auri and Ishgard, can we truly be allies?

[Nestama]

I don't think they even need to diabolize her, in the Ishgardian story of the creation of their city they say themselves that they basically invaded dragon's territory, which in all logic, makes them the bad guys. Having laid with a dragon isn't bestiality to the heretics, it's a sign of peace with the dragons. Also Shiva said herself that she was in love with a dragon when you defeat her.

It is said she "lay with the dragons," which can be the same as laying/sleeping with the enemy (which can mean anything. Sex is one thing, but it can also be working together, sharing secrets, providing succour, etc). For all we know, she could have teamed up with a dragon to try and make peace with both Dravanians and Ishgardians, healed a dragons wounds, or shared Ishgardian secrets to give the Dravanian horde the upper hand. She also says "Forgive them, my beloved..." which could mean anything. This could be Iceheart speaking for AND to Shiva.

[Viridiana]

It is said she "lay with the dragons," which can be the same as laying/sleeping with the enemy (which can mean anything. Sex is one thing, but it can also be working together, sharing secrets, providing succour, etc).

I say this every time it comes up: the English phrase "lay with" means had sex with. It's unequivocal. There's no wiggle room. This is what the NPCs are saying. Whether it is true remains to be seen, but there's no doubt what's being claimed.

[Kuwagami]

I say this every time it comes up: the English phrase "lay with" means had sex with. It's unequivocal. There's no wiggle room. This is what the NPCs are saying. Whether it is true remains to be seen, but there's no doubt what's being claimed.

Are you sure?

This is a genuine question. I'm not english, not really living in an english speaking country, so I don't know some nuances.

I know the expression "getting laid", which means having sex. But to "lay with" was for me just some figurative way to say that they were working together (as in, sleeping/laying in the same place). While searching a bit, I couldn't find "to lay with" but I found instead "to lie with", which means :

a) to be the duty or function of:
The decision in this matter lies with him.
b) Archaic. to have sexual intercourse with.


Would they happen to be the same ? In that case, and considering Eorzeans and the elezens in particular tend to use a somewhat archaic English sometimes, i would explain a lot.

(Though it still wouldn't make these claim true, at least the theories that followed would be more understandable)

[Viridiana]

While searching a bit, I couldn't find "to lay with" but I found instead "to lie with", which means :

a) to be the duty or function of:
The decision in this matter lies with him.
b) Archaic. to have sexual intercourse with.


Would they happen to be the same ? In that case, and considering Eorzeans and the elezens in particular tend to use a somewhat archaic English sometimes, i would explain a lot.

(Though it still wouldn't make these claim true, at least the theories that followed would be more understandable)

"Lay" is the past tense of "lie" (though not when telling lies; then it's "lied"). Most English speakers even mess this up, because "lay" is also its own word meaning to put something down. So, yeah, "lay with" is the past tense of "lie with" which is an archaic way of saying have sex with.

Edit:

For anyone else who's still doubting, the NPC reactions themselves tell you that this is what is being said. Minfilia questions *how* such an act would be done, not why. She literally says "How such a thing could even be possible is quite another question." That's not the reaction of someone wondering why an Ishgardian would ally themself with a Dravanian. It's the reaction of someone trying not to think too hard about hot dragon on Elezen action.

[Kuwagami]

"Lay" is the past tense of "lie" (though not when telling lies; then it's "lied"). Most English speakers even mess this up, because "lay" is also its own word meaning to put something down. So, yeah, "lay with" is the past tense of "lie with" which is an archaic way of saying have sex with.

noted. Always good to learn something new ^^

[Sapphic]

"Lay" is the past tense of "lie" (though not when telling lies; then it's "lied"). Most English speakers even mess this up, because "lay" is also its own word meaning to put something down. So, yeah, "lay with" is the past tense of "lie with" which is an archaic way of saying have sex with.

No it's not. As niether is the phrase "sleeping with the enemy" to mean you literally jump in the same bed.

[Viridiana]

No it's not. As niether is the phrase "sleeping with the enemy" to mean you literally jump in the same bed.

Are you trying to tell me that "lay" is not the past tense of "lie," even though it is (for lying down, but not for lying about your age)? Or are you trying to tell me that "lie with" is not an archaic way of saying "have sex with," even though it is?

[Sapphic]

Are you trying to tell me that "lay" is not the past tense of "lie," even though it is (for lying down, but not for lying about your age)? Or are you trying to tell me that "lie with" is not an archaic way of saying "have sex with," even though it is?

That is exactly what I am saying, a phrase of that context you do not break it down to the meaning of each individual word, but the whole phrase.

Here you go:

In everyday speech, a phrase may be any group of words, often carrying a special idiomatic meaning; in this sense it is roughly synonymous with expression.

I bolded the important part.

Layaing with the enemy is another way of saying sleeping with the enemy. Definition below.

The phrase “sleeping with the enemy” is often used to describe a situation involving a non-adversarial relationship between two individuals or entities that would normally be unfriendly or adversarial. This frequently includes business deals between competitors, joint projects tackled by enemies, and political maneuverings that require the cooperation of competing parties. Sometimes, sleeping with the enemy involves cooperating just for the purpose of gaining inside information or the upper hand in a competitive situation. In other situations, however, opposing parties may actually work together for the good of a common goal.

Bolded the important part, conjecture here, but the common goal for Shiva may have been the ending of hostilities between Ishgard and Dravania.