Auri and Ishgard, can we truly be allies?

[Viridiana]

To respond to your points on Shiva in order:
* Her laying with a dragon may be false, but it may also be true. At this point we have no way of knowing either way so there's no grounds here to dismiss speculation about her siring the Au'Ra race.

I'm not against speculation, but I do insist that we be mindful of just how little we have to try to establish anything. Until we have more information, I will go with the side that requires fewer assumptions, and I believe that to be the side saying she's not the progenitor of the Au Ra race. (It's Au Ra, by the way, not Au'Ra.)

* If anything I would say the detail they agree on is the most likely to be the actual truth, whilst everything else is individual embellishment. Remember that Dravanians can take human form. What Shiva is accused of is not impossible.

I disagree. Not with the part about Dravanian glamours, as I consider that one of the more plausible ways for that to have happened if indeed it did (though, as others pointed out, we've only seen heretic-to-dragon glamour). Rather I disagree that a few sparse sources all claiming one thing about a person while disagreeing about everything else should make that one thing more likely to be true. Especially when that one thing is so sensational and is the only thing recorded as being noteworthy about that person.

* The Domans are not the Au'Ra. I keep seeing this argument used regarding them not being able to populate to those numbers in a thousand years but as we've already seen the majority of the Domans are Hyur. The Au'Ra may actually be comparatively small in number; we don't know either way on this one yet so again it's not grounds to dismiss any speculation.

But we know they've reproduced in numbers enough to produce two distinct clans, with each clan presumably having enough members to be a sustainable population. Unless SE decides to go with some variation of "The offspring of an Auri is always an Auri," the time required for one set off offspring (Shiva's) to branch into two distinct clans with their own cultures and everything is. . .probably longer than the 1,000 years you're giving them. I'm not saying the devs can't do this, but I don't see it happening.

* Yes, I'm assuming fertility and further breeding to propagate the species. This is a fantasy world full of magic. There's nothing stopping this being possible unless the writers have drawn up special Eorzean rules of biology that I don't know about. Add to that the fact that the Au'Ra live in a multi-racial society where they would appear to be accepted entirely without prejudice. What's to stop the Au'Ra having relationships with the Hyur citizens of Doma?

Well, technically real-world biology would prevent this, even if we grant Shiva fertility, so you are assuming magical biology.

To clarify, repeated breeding with Eorzeans or Domans would dilute the dragon blood until you're left with just some odd-looking Elezen babies. That, or the Au Ra would have to keep the bloodline pure, which would be a thousand years of inbreeding. The only ways out of this (that I see) are an old Au Ra race, multiple original lineages (meaning at least some are not descended from Shiva), an extremely long-lived race able to propogate in vast numbers from an original stock (without diluting the blood, so to speak), or an extremely diverse original stock (which is kinda magical biology, too).

* Who's to say what the circumstances were of Shiva's capture and execution? We know very little of this so, once again, we know nothing so far that makes it impossible for her to have had children as a result of her union with a Dravanian. She may not have been caught until after she'd already given birth.

Possible. As you say, we don't know. I do think, however, that Ishgard would have hunted down any offspring if they knew of them, though. As such, I'm more willing to assume that there were few to no surviving offspring.

I will reiterate that this is merely speculation. We have no real way of knowing one way or the other on this until it's confirmed in-game or by Koji.

Agreed. And I don't mean to say by any of this "No, you're definitely wrong! What were you thinking!?" I'm totally prepared for the possibility that I'm wrong on this. I'm just going with what I think is more likely.

From a story-writing perspective though introducing a hybrid race alongside a story element involving a forbidden inter-racial union strikes me as more than just coincidence.

I see it as a red herring, personally. Or just general myth-building.

I do agree though that Aymeric and Haurchefant are the more liberal members of Ishgardian society, and thus would be the most likely to regard Yugiri with an open mind. I'm hoping that the early parts of the 3.0 story will address the way the rest of Ishgard should perceive her.

Yeah, they're going to have to address it at some point. A newly created Auri hitting the Coerthas stretch of the MSQ for the first time. . .there's gonna need to be something to explain that, even if they aren't descended from Dravanians.

[Kuwagami]

Yoshida never really told us what they are. All we know as of right now is we can make them look super cute or "succubus and demon like" according to what he said at PAX! But unless if I missed it somewhere, I don't think they ever mentioned them being dragons or draconian o.o

At the very first, the Au Ri were described as a draconic/demonic race without really going into details iirc. People just assumed that the Au Ri were draconians when they heard about Saint Shiva.



On the Shiva's story point, I find it a bit amusing that people are so quick to take the story for true. Myth building is a strong and rather reliable way to demonize someone or something, in order to make the brainless masses believe that you are right and that your enemies should just burn. Christianity did that a lot back in times. Healers (described as sorcerers and witches), pagans.. suffered a lot from this.

Now to transpose into the game : we have a strong religious city, stuck into a long lasting war and led by a pope. In order to keep unity and faith into the fight (righteous cause of course!), especially for that long, you have to demonize your enemy. Every record of possible cordial relations are removed, attempts of negotiations and mutual understanding are deemed as high treason, etc...

So I think that Saint Shiva was just someone who wanted the fight to end, and not in a blood bath. What did she really do ? We can't really say. But the Holy See didn't like it, and hunted her as an heretic. But they had to demonize her to create an example. And what could be more of a treason, an absolute horror but to lay with a draconian, an enemy, not even a human-shaped race ? Sleeping with the country's butchers was imo a direct hit, a lame way to make the people hate Shiva. History is written by the winners. And this time, the winning side was the Holy See.

Considering SE's messages on religions and politics in the entire FF series, it wouldn't surprise me much that Shiva never ever laid with a dragon, and instead just tried to restore peace by NOT annihilating one side in the war. Then Holy See's propaganda brainwashed everyone, and she became the infamous traitor we have heard about. Because eff dragons.

[lololink]

I don't think they even need to diabolize her, in the Ishgardian story of the creation of their city they say themselves that they basically invaded dragon's territory, which in all logic, makes them the bad guys. Having laid with a dragon isn't bestiality to the heretics, it's a sign of peace with the dragons. Also Shiva said herself that she was in love with a dragon when you defeat her.

[Viridiana]

Also Shiva said herself that she was in love with a dragon when you defeat her.

Which actually gets into an interesting question on the nature of Primals. Was that a comment the original Saint Shiva would have made, or is it an emotion invested in the Primal by the summoners?

[lilirulu]

Ishgardian's aren't stupid I'm sure they could tell the difference between a dragon person and a Dravanian...



Oh Ishgard...

On the topic of "Yoshi-P said that the Aura can look like Succubus" I interpreted that as they can have a seductress-like look. Though he may have meant it more literally as one of the Au Ra tribes/clans does look to have skin coloration similar to keeper/duskwight.

[Kuwagami]

Which actually gets into an interesting question on the nature of Primals. Was that a comment the original Saint Shiva would have made, or is it an emotion invested in the Primal by the summoners?

Primals are prayers and Aether. Whatever the "summoner" thinks should then become reality imo.

There was an interesting theory about that a few month ago, considering Belias-egi being a dark Ifrit-egi. Belias would be an ancient picture of Ifrit, the same entity (fire djinn) but under an other name, and maybe an other representation.

Thus, as Shiva is believed to have laid with a dragon by her followers (the heretics follow her thoughts, not as a deity like beast tribes) because it's the only history written for sure about her, it's perfectly reasonable to think that this knowledge influenced the Primal being into being in love with a dravanian.

It would be interesting to learn more about the primals some day. Moggle Mog XII and Shiva kinda changed former theories (not necessarily a god, no need for crystals), Belias egi raised a few questions as well... But no sign of an answer for the moment

Ishgardian's aren't stupid I'm sure they could tell the difference between a dragon person and a Dravanian...



Oh Ishgard...

I swear it's a dravanian glamouring

[Nestama]

I don't think they even need to diabolize her, in the Ishgardian story of the creation of their city they say themselves that they basically invaded dragon's territory, which in all logic, makes them the bad guys. Having laid with a dragon isn't bestiality to the heretics, it's a sign of peace with the dragons. Also Shiva said herself that she was in love with a dragon when you defeat her.

It is said she "lay with the dragons," which can be the same as laying/sleeping with the enemy (which can mean anything. Sex is one thing, but it can also be working together, sharing secrets, providing succour, etc). For all we know, she could have teamed up with a dragon to try and make peace with both Dravanians and Ishgardians, healed a dragons wounds, or shared Ishgardian secrets to give the Dravanian horde the upper hand. She also says "Forgive them, my beloved..." which could mean anything. This could be Iceheart speaking for AND to Shiva.

[Viridiana]

It is said she "lay with the dragons," which can be the same as laying/sleeping with the enemy (which can mean anything. Sex is one thing, but it can also be working together, sharing secrets, providing succour, etc).

I say this every time it comes up: the English phrase "lay with" means had sex with. It's unequivocal. There's no wiggle room. This is what the NPCs are saying. Whether it is true remains to be seen, but there's no doubt what's being claimed.

[Kuwagami]

I say this every time it comes up: the English phrase "lay with" means had sex with. It's unequivocal. There's no wiggle room. This is what the NPCs are saying. Whether it is true remains to be seen, but there's no doubt what's being claimed.

Are you sure?

This is a genuine question. I'm not english, not really living in an english speaking country, so I don't know some nuances.

I know the expression "getting laid", which means having sex. But to "lay with" was for me just some figurative way to say that they were working together (as in, sleeping/laying in the same place). While searching a bit, I couldn't find "to lay with" but I found instead "to lie with", which means :

a) to be the duty or function of:
The decision in this matter lies with him.
b) Archaic. to have sexual intercourse with.


Would they happen to be the same ? In that case, and considering Eorzeans and the elezens in particular tend to use a somewhat archaic English sometimes, i would explain a lot.

(Though it still wouldn't make these claim true, at least the theories that followed would be more understandable)

[Viridiana]

While searching a bit, I couldn't find "to lay with" but I found instead "to lie with", which means :

a) to be the duty or function of:
The decision in this matter lies with him.
b) Archaic. to have sexual intercourse with.


Would they happen to be the same ? In that case, and considering Eorzeans and the elezens in particular tend to use a somewhat archaic English sometimes, i would explain a lot.

(Though it still wouldn't make these claim true, at least the theories that followed would be more understandable)

"Lay" is the past tense of "lie" (though not when telling lies; then it's "lied"). Most English speakers even mess this up, because "lay" is also its own word meaning to put something down. So, yeah, "lay with" is the past tense of "lie with" which is an archaic way of saying have sex with.

Edit:

For anyone else who's still doubting, the NPC reactions themselves tell you that this is what is being said. Minfilia questions *how* such an act would be done, not why. She literally says "How such a thing could even be possible is quite another question." That's not the reaction of someone wondering why an Ishgardian would ally themself with a Dravanian. It's the reaction of someone trying not to think too hard about hot dragon on Elezen action.