Midgardsormr and the Crystals

[lololink]

Interestingly enough, big fcob spoilers

I wonder if the primal Phoenix was created due to Hydaelyn. If she expended her energy to give Louisoix the power to transform. The prayers to the 12 were one thing, but the aether had to come from somewhere.

If she expended a lot of her power to help defeat bahamut in the calamity, then that would explain why she's been so weak since the beginning of the main story. It wasn't apparent because she wasn't exactly doing much at first, but I do believe here strength has been waning for a while - since the calamity even.

Nope ,

It's the twelve, upon disappearing they gave all their aether to Louisoix so that he can stop Bahamut, that made him a primal, the same way Louisoix gave his remaining aether to Alisaie and Alphinaud before disappearing.

[Viridiana]

I doubt Midgardsormr took the blessing so he could use it to make his body. He's in Mor Dhona, the aetheric fountain of the world - no extra aether needed.
He removed it to test us, and stop us from draining Hydaelyn any further since she's very weak atm.

Agreed. Though, I kinda wonder how much we've actually been draining Hyd since Praetorium. I mean, we did the hard mode Primals, sure, but it's hard to say how much, if at all, that drains Hyd. Especially considering that some of us went on to do extreme mode Primals without the blessing.

[Anonymoose]

the aether had to come from somewhere.

Twas gathered with Tupsimati, then left drifting and formless when Bahamut broke the summoning.

I wonder if the primal Phoenix was created due to Hydaelyn.

It's the twelve

To claim either of those as canon is too soon, isn't it? I think some important context ...text... might have been skipped.

The Knowns

When Louisoix performed the summoning, he knew that The Twelve, as we hoped they existed, weren't coming. He knew that even if they were more than eikons somewhere, in this realm they would (most likely) be aether-hungry, world-draining aetheric deiforms. He believed it so fully that he intended to kill himself to prevent the ritual from completing, severing the link after summoning their strength, but before they could manifest corporeally.

He gathered the zealous prayers of thousands of Eorzeans, saturated into the entire aetheric network of the realm by having them go on a pilgrimage to the stones of the Twelve, which he made himself, in a circle around Mor Dhona. He gathered an unprecedented amount of aether using Tupsimati's power, and cast the very type of summoning spell he was in Eorzea to eradicate. Except the ritual never even got to the point where Louisoix would have killed himself - Bahamut broke the spell. You can see the shock and horror on his face when it first happens, he has no idea what to do next, so he opens a rift in time using the waning power of Althyk, sends the Warriors of Light away, and embraces death...

And it doesn't come. The aether summoned by Tupsimati, still free-floating in the air from the broken spell, latches onto the prayers of thousands that Louisoix will save them. At the very same time, he himself is desperately wishing for the realm to be saved. [Aether + Prayer + Object of Prayer thinking about Rebirth = Phoenix]. It can't be a coincidence that people were praying he'd save the realm, and he was thinking about rebirth (and the legends associated with it: rising from the ashes to live again), and turned into a deiform phoenix - and nowhere is there a hint that it was any more than aether and prayer.

It could end up being the case that the Twelve or Hydaelyn were involved, but it's way too soon to say that. The only hint to "something more" is that, right before the transformation hits, Louisoix is surrounded by the twelve spires he just summoned (the things he was going to kill himself before they showed up for real). That could mean something big, or it could just mean that people were praying The Twelve would give Louisoix the power to do it, and the accidental ritual played out to the best of it's ability - kind of like how people prayed that Dalamud would be returned to the heavens, and giant symbols appeared and encased Bahamut in a makeshift aetherial Dalamud pretty literally, all the way to down the light spires acting as internment hulks (the same "internment hulks" surrounding him when he turned into a primal).

As for what Louisoix gives Alfie and Ali, I'm not sure. He talks about "an ancient art" that lets you summon a primal's power from its defeated essence. I thought he was literally bestowing on them permission to summon the closest thing he could offer to assistance: Phoenix-Egi (because they're Arcanists).

[PArcher]

If you want a source, the MSQ told you his staff is used to summon vast amounts of aether, and you do a similar thing to kill the Ascian.

As an aside

I've been hoping clearing FCoB will give us a Phoenix-Egi ourselves in Heavesward, either as an alternate Summon III or maybe a mount or minion

[HReincarnate]

Agreed. Though, I kinda wonder how much we've actually been draining Hyd since Praetorium. I mean, we did the hard mode Primals, sure, but it's hard to say how much, if at all, that drains Hyd. Especially considering that some of us went on to do extreme mode Primals without the blessing.

It does make you wonder what the blessing of light actually was. Was it a source of extra strength? Because canonically, our strength doesn't seem to have diminished.

It may have been protection against the ascians, but it seems that they haven't been trying to harm us anyway... (except for one, and we know what happened to him XD)

Snip

Very good points. I missed the fact that the aether had been collected by Tsupsimati, so I wondered where the aether came from and wondered if it had been Hydaelyn. A friend of mine introduced this idea to me, and then we went on to a 2 hour long debate about the absolute strength of mega-primals - so I guess we never fleshed the idea out and checked its' feasability.

Back on topic
I do wonder what the crystals actually do. It's been brought up in the thread, and I looked it up and watched some cutscenes - and they don't seem to have an actual apparent purpose.

AlexionSkylark said that they might be metaphoric - you gain them to mark your readiness for the next step before Hydaelyn gives you her blessing.

He was proven wrong as they are physical, but the idea still has merit. The crystals could have been planted by Hydaelyn for her prospective champion to recover - so that when he obtained them all, she would know he was ready to be her champion.

[lololink]

The Knowns

It could end up being the case that the Twelve or Hydaelyn were involved

As for what Louisoix gives Alfie and Ali, I'm not sure. He talks about "an ancient art" that lets you summon a primal's power from its defeated essence. I thought he was literally bestowing on them permission to summon the closest thing he could offer to assistance: Phoenix-Egi (because they're Arcanists).

Still spoilers T12 :

The twelves are involved, you see them clearly surrouding Louisoix in the T12 cinematic :
( On the left the T12 scene, on the right the same blades being summoned as the twelve surrouding Bahamut )

Sure the twins might also be able to summon egis but the main thing here is that the primal chose to give their aether, in the case of Louisoix there wasn't much left after he was defeated, but the twelves still had a huge amount of aether, the aether that made Louisoix a primal didn't come from nowhere and you don't see him use his staff to gather the aether and use it on him, he was just waiting his death and then the twelve appeared to him, without any text and just watching the T12 cinematic it's obvious to me that the twelve gave their aether to him. The people were praying the twelves, not Louisoix directly.

[treuhavik]

Still

The Twelve were never fully summoned, though, making it extremely unlikely that they had a direct hand in this transformation. If they had been, Louisoux was pretty confident that they would have the same aether-hungry form as our known primals. The vision of the Twevle was only that--a depiction of the ritual. Once the last attempt to command their summoned power failed, the aether being used for this was turned inward, toward Louisoux who then became Phoenix with said aether and the prayers of thousands seeking a savior.

It's all pretty cut and dry, IMO. This cinematic was revealed to solve the mystery, not pose more questions or serve as fanon fodder.

/10characters

[Anonymoose]

The twelves are involved, you see them clearly surrouding Louisoix in the T12 cinematic

Might as well continue the spoiler tag tradition:

That's what I mean; are you sure that those spires are The Twelve? You're certain that, canonically, they're guaranteed to not be half-summoned crystalline eikons brought about by Louisoix's ritual, and guaranteed not to be manifestations of the Twelves' attributed powers given form by the prayers of Eorzeans, but The Twelve? So far, I lack that certainty, and so I am hesitant.

the aether that made Louisoix a primal didn't come from nowhere and you don't see him use his staff to gather the aether and use it on him, he was just waiting his death and then the twelve appeared to him

In Louisoix's own telling of the events he accounts for the aether's source and how it was bestowed upon him.

Little choice remained to me. I used the last of my strength to entrust our hope unto the future, and prepared to meet my end. As you have no doubt surmised, I did not perish. When the cage built from the essences of the Twelve was destroyed, the sky was filled with a colossal cloud of aether... This drifting energy responded to the prayers of those fighting below─and to my own desperate wish that the dying realm be saved─by infusing me with the power of a primal. I became the immortal Phoenix, ancient symbol of rebirth.

Of course, that this doesn't rule out the spires being the Twelve in any way; I'm not trying to say that at all. I just don't find it to be self-evident, either. I'm still in that gray area of "That could have been the true Twelve, but it could just as easily have been man-made artifacts of a half-completed summoning ritual." That's the line of confusion SE want's us to tread, isn't it? They even used that word, again - "essences."

If it was confirmed that The Twelve just step in and make primals, that'd throw open a lot of doors and slam shut a lot more. We'd need to start a lot of our discussions over again from scratch.

[lololink]

. .

If it's not linked to the twelves, then why does Louisoix have a vision of the swords that were summoned right before as the twelve to jail Bahamut ? Why wouldn't Bahamut even eat that aether to become even stronger and preventing Louisoix to use it ?

[treuhavik]

. .

If it's not linked to the twelves, then why does Louisoix have a vision of the twelve swords that were summoned right before as the twelve to jail Bahamut ? Why wouldn't Bahamut even eat that aether to become even stronger and preventing Louisoix to use it ?

It's not that it isn't linked to The Twelve, but to say that he was transformed into Phoenix by The Twelve defies what Louisoux confirms as canon.

/10characters