Just witnessed a newbie get kicked from Praetorium.

[MomomiMomi]

Also just had someone initiate a vote kick on someone watching cutscenes. At least it didn't pass.

In terms of letting them watch cutscenes, it seemed we had quite a few people willing to wait, but all it takes is one or two impatient people to ruin it.

[Zfz]

Exactly...I made several posts about this a while back saying the same thing. It's wrong to disenfranchise that one person. People told me I was stupid and spreading ignorance. That's the official forums for you. 4 people being apathetic isn't much better though.

Wait, there's 8 people.

1 is the subject of the vote.
1 initiated the vote - count as YES?
3 voted YES - else the vote wouldn't go through

...there's only 3 left, and if the person who initiated always counts as YES, then nothing these 3 people do can turn it around. Effectively it's a vote between only 6 people with a bias towards YES. Now that you mention it, this doesn't feel so right.

I don't know the mechanism well, just following from the info given in the thread.

[Adire]

snip

That's mostly correct, except that 3 Yes votes aren't necessarily needed.

Another thing that could have happened, which I find more likely given the reason for the kick being so insane, is that at least one person voted Yes and the others just didn't vote, and as such were not counted. Only one Yes vote was needed to break the tie between the kick starter and myself assuming no one else voted at all or voted Yes as well. (Edit: This is my understanding of how it works. If someone can clarify if this is correct or not, I'd appreciate it!)

It's also possible that most or all of us voted, some voted No and some Yes, but we were outvoted due to the automatic Yes the vote kicker gets and the fact that the person being kicked cannot vote No, giving the Yes side the advantage.

Either way you're right though, there is a bias towards Yes. The person initiating the kick is a Yes, the person being kicked is not counted.

As someone mentioned before, vote kicking often comes down to whoever starts the kick first gets the win unless everyone votes with actual intent behind their choice. And usually it's the aggressor since they are usually the people who care least about everyone's feelings. And apparently, you can't reliably count on everyone, or even most of everyone to use their right to vote. And that makes the Yes side have an advantage.

It's even worse in 4 man dungeons :/. In there it's 2 people vs 2 people, unless both people (other than the kick starter and the person being voted against) vote No, the person will be kicked. I've seen people get kicked for the dumbest reasons even when I vote No simply because the other person either doesn't vote, or votes Yes for whatever reason, usually the reason being they came in with their friend who started the kick.

[Cyrus-Wallace]

It's awful, I agree, and I would've voted No if I had been there but this is sadly the state of the community. What's really horrifying is that I've been told by many people that FFXIV is the best mmo community they've ever seen. That's disturbing. I shudder to think what other mmos are like.

A few months ago, I've tried WoW again, when WoD was released. I was terrified about its community (Well, I didn't go to the forums). I played tank for the first time since WotLK... well. It actually turned out that people were completly nice. If they saw me fucking it up, they actually gave me advice. In RAIDS, where you had like 2 tanks... and 4839048390 DPS, telling the other tank I was new, he sent me tells telling me what to do. I dunno, my experience with the WoW community was pretty positive: In dungeons, in raids, in the overworld... and they were pretty communicative too. D: And they have the worst reputation.

As for the current matter, you know, people will vote yes when they have to kick people because the vote is a secret. People are burnt out of running the same content over and over, at some point they decide that kicking the newbie is the best choice since that will speed up their run. You won't be yelled at if you vote "yes". The guy will be kicked if the majority votes for "yes" and they won't say a word. It's sad, and I'm afraid for my friends. They'll join me in two months, as brand new players and I'll have to take care of them in every instance so they don't find that shitty people... which will be unavoidable at some point as they progress through the game's content .-.

[nuyu11]

So far I cancelled 3 vote kick, even he/she mess up I still prefer give them a chance. I still remember on low level dungeon, I tank that time and we have green leaf healer got kicked because he not well performed then I bailed immediately after that. let that both DPS waiting for their good performance replacement.

[Adire]

snip

Rest assured, if they end up in a dungeon with me and people are giving them problems, I'll get very, very vocal :P

[Cyrus-Wallace]

Rest assured, if they end up in a dungeon with me and people are giving them problems, I'll get very, very vocal :P

My blade is in your hands, brave warrior.

[Anapingofness]

That's terrible OP. I hope you reported the jerks because such behavior is unacceptable.

That being said, we know the behavior exists and the only thing we can do is do our best to stand up for what is morally right.
I don't mean getting to stupid arguments with the trolls/jerks, but doing our best not to let them have their way and ruin the experience for all around them.
So if that means saying something then say something, if that means reporting them then report them, and if that means trying to get them kicked from the group then initiate the vote kick.
Ultimately, we can also choose to leave and not finish the run.
I've said this before and I will say this again, SE can't do much about the community. Whether or not we have a good and positive community is on us.
Thankfully, most players that I've run into seem to support having a good community over having a toxic one.

[Adire]

Thank you for posting Anapingofness and for being a good person.

Unfortunately, as we mentioned, SE doesn't seem to do much about abusive vote kicks or player disagreements regarding "differences of playstyles" as said by GMs, which can be anything really. I can find the quote from a GM if anyone wants me to.

They could definitely help the community become more welcoming by enforcing abuse and harassment punishments more strictly and looking into reports of it more in my opinion. I posted about that a while back, and people said they don't have the resources to do so, though I personally believe preventing harassment and vote kick abuse should be very important to SE and a high priority. Community treatment of players, particularly new players, seems like it would be a factor in determining if people continue to play, or at least their motivation to do so. I know it influences me personally.

Issuing a general statement to the community for all to see saying "We can't help, playstyles are playstyles." is only going to encourage this terrible behavior. It doesn't take making punishments against individual players public or punishing every last person who is reported to the full extent, all it takes is doing enough to create a general feeling in the community that punishments do happen, and could happen to anyone who is guilty of abusing people at any time to discourage it greatly. Word tends to get around in a community when the company running the game is known to dish out punishments or bans.

As it is now, SE's warning on the kick window and elsewhere that things are bannable does not click with GM statements that say the opposite.

[Yumi_umi]

Whoever takes the leadership role in castrum or prae = control the herd of sheeps