Think Dark Knight will have any HP-sacrificing abilities, for Solo or Off-tank roles?

[TruebladeNuke]

If they don't give DRK its signature move, an HP-sacrificing ability, they might as well change the name to something entirely different other than 'dark knight'. Like I said in a previous thread, they have butchered the dark knight that's known to us all, no matter how happy some people might be.

Hate to break it to you, but in way earlier FF titles, Dark Knights were actually more on the Tank side of things over HP-Sacrificing ways. FF2 and FF4 are classic examples of this, (minus the later FF4 remakes) in that the characters that were Dark Knights were more on the durable "I can take more hits then anyone else can" side and didn't even have any HP sacrificing abilities. HP sacrificing abilities came in later just to make Dark Knight more its own thing in later FF games and remakes. Don't believe me? Compare Dark Knight Cecil the way he was in the absolute original release of FF4 and compare it to the most recent re-make.

In this regard, the Dark Knight role that's appearing in FFXIV is taking on after the "classic" Dark Knight, that is to say, Tanking, while mixing in a bit of modern Dark Knights with the use of MP replacing HP sacrificing. I'll admit though that I was shocked at first to hear that Dark Knight is appearing as a Tank instead of DPS, but I came to love it shortly after due to the sheer lack of Tank and Healers classes in this game.

Regardless, this post I'm responding to is yet another "OMG! I HATE CHANGE!" post that SOOOOO many people do on forums. People, you've got to accept the facts that things are liable to change. Besides, this is a fresh take, which makes me just like it even more. Taking advantage of the fact that each FF game is more or less different from one another in characters and lore.

[nuyu11]

Dark Knight is mp based ability, use a lot of mp for maintaining dark buff. I will expect lot of them will slot mana materia.

[myahele]

This will be good. DRKs can use ethers to prolong their tanking duties. By being MP based it also means that they can run .

They could have a stance that reduces their max hp by 20% but increase def by the same amount, so even if they have less HP than PLD it still works out due to having a much higher base physical and magical def. In theory.

Kinda like how the extra hp and cure for WAR

[Cabalabob]

In Ffxi DRK got an awful ability called scarlet delirium. What this move did was give you a buff that on the next hit you take it would increase your damage dealt by half the % of your Max hp you took in damage.

So if you had 1000 max hp and took 500 damage (50% of your max hp) you would get a 25%(half of the damage you took) damage buff for the duration of scarlet delirium.

Now this move was awful in ffxi cause DRK was a DD not a tank and it required you to purposefully put yourself at the most risk you possibly could for the best reward. But in ffxiv seeing as DRK is going to be taking those tank buster hits anyway, this might actually work for them.

[Malusion]

"Dark knight lives on MP. They considered using HP as resource, but thought it would be too dangerous for raids, and so went with MP instead. You'll use MP to cast a darkness buff that drapes you with a darkness aura. Playstyle will revolve around maintaing that aura, using it for defence or damage."

From the translation of an interview at PAX.

Edit. Source.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/2z06p9/famitsu_paxeast_interview/

[Zfz]

Looking at how the Warrior was buffed to remove some of the linkage between its survivability and enmity generation, I don't think the devs would make the same mistake again so quickly. Even if there is a skill that consumes HP, either it won't be useful in raids or it will be tied to some defensive mechanism like Holmgang.

[Krr]

Don't believe me? Compare Dark Knight Cecil the way he was in the absolute original release of FF4 and compare it to the most recent re-make.

Well, he still had the 'Dark' command, but it was a minor perk of the class and definitely not a regular use ability. You only ever used it to clear crowds that would deal at least as much damage to the party as Cecil would to himself, and it was almost never a valid option during major boss fights.

He also used shields and was the only heavily-armored frontliner in your group for the majority of the pre-Mt. Ordeals arc, very clearly designating Cecil as the party's 'tank' in FF4. He was also easily outdamaged by most mages in AOE situations, and Yang spamming Power absolutely wrecked him in terms of damage-per-turn. The only games where DRK have really been impressive or superior damage dealers were FFXI and FFX-2. The rest of the time they were just chufty armor guys with a 'Dark' command and some swords that inflict status effects. (One of which is sometimes Instant Death. Hell yeah.)

Yeah, they did more damage than paladins, but they were still outclassed by Monks, Thieves, Ninjas, sometimes Samurai, and on par with Warriors and Berserkers at best.



I would like to see a situational ability that consumes a flat, managable amount of HP, though! Warriors have Berserk, so it's not out of the question for tanks to have skills that give them temporary, serious disadvantages that another party member can alleviate.

[Tanathya]

... in way earlier FF titles, Dark Knights were actually more on the Tank side of things over HP-Sacrificing ways. FF2 and FF4 are classic examples of this, (minus the later FF4 remakes) in that the characters that were Dark Knights were more on the durable "I can take more hits then anyone else can" side and didn't even have any HP sacrificing abilities. HP sacrificing abilities came in later just to make Dark Knight more its own thing in later FF games and remakes.

I'm not against the change, and no, you're not breaking it to me. Earlier dark knights, such as Cecil, weren't tanky, he was a protagonist, and he had to go alone for most of his dark knight career. A tank, in an offline FF, would be maybe paladin or viking, both jobs actually had tank abilities, and no one picked them up for either Cover, or Provoke. So no, a DRK tanking makes as much sense as a BLM healing.

They could've added BLM as a healer, make it work just nicely, but it would NOT feel like a BLM. Also, all I said is, if they're taking its SIGNATURE MOVE away, they might as well change its name. Because no, it does not feel like a dark knight without an hp-sacrificing move, no matter how you wanna make it look, as well as it wouldn't feel right to play a black mage without their elemental, devastating spells.

Also, how'd you call FFIV a "later game"? Because, as far as I know, darkness was there for you to use.

[Krr]

I'm not against the change, and no, you're not breaking it to me. Earlier dark knights, such as Cecil, weren't tanky, he was a protagonist, and he had to go alone for most of his dark knight career.

Erm. Factually, these are the party members who adventure alongside Cecil as a Dark Knight, in order:

Kain (DRG), Child Rydia (BLM/WHM, minimal Summons at best), Tellah (BLM/WHM), Edward (BRD), Yang (MNK), Rosa (WHM), and Palom/Porom (WHM and BLM).

Cecil spends approximately ~30 minutes of the game alone, where he must walk across a desert to bring Rydia back to life. Rydia starts much weaker than Cecil, but becomes a very competent black mage and can spot as a white mage after one dungeon, wherein Tellah also joins the party with a mid-level-ish array of Black and White magic. During the intro dungeon, he is also accompanied by Kain, who is a superior damage dealer with Jump in nearly every respect.

Two and a half dungeons and one town event after we get Tellah and Rydia, Yang joins the party, and absolutely blows Cecil's damage output out of the water.

We can imagine or remember epic depictions of Cecil's character all we want, but he was by no means a stellar damage dealer in FFIV.

"Tank" does not mean "protector". "Tank" means "shock trooper heavy enough and good enough at face-to-face combat to keep enemies busy." Thus was the role of the NES FF3 Dark Knight, Cecil, Gafgarion, and similar. Thus is the role of our own Warrior class in the game - a heavily-armored berserker who's weight and power is difficult to ignore.

I would find it more of a lore violation that the vicious and prideful Dark Knights of FF lore would fight behind their enemy rather than face-on.

[Tanathya]

Erm. Factually, these are the party members who adventure alongside Cecil as a Dark Knight

Then again, he was just a protagonist who had to go alone for most of his dark knight time. He had to survive. A tank that doesn't protect, is not a tank; you can have the most HP, most defense in the entire game from minute 1 and not get hit because the AI doesn't want you to be hit. As easy as that. And for the third time, I just referenced DRK's signature ability, not the fact that it's a tank.