Dear Yoshi & Team: About Current TT Tournament Model

[JayCommon]

snip

Maybe not, but I believe in innocent until proven guilty. I am not the one declaring to completely nix an entire competition based on biased point of view for whatever may or may not be happening on your server, I look at the bigger picture.

If you deny legit winners the card, you can possibly lose their sub forever. How can you not realize that some people take this very seriously?

You can call it naive all you want, but it's realism. You don't have to like it, but I'm sorry, cancelling the entire tournament across all worlds because there may be rampant cheating going on in some of the servers is not the correct way to go about fixing this. That's my opinion. If this is the only way you feel this week's tournament can be reconciled, an investigation by SE needs be undertaken to determine which players cheated, and then punish those people. I will never be in favor of laying down heavy-handed judgement based off of unfounded assumptions (of EVERYONE in the top cheating) that sweeps across the board, negatively affecting any player who didn't rightly deserve it.

Btw, I dropped to 4th place, I'm already out of the Lightning race this week. I didn't really think my score would stand the whole week anyway. The person who skipped me is still not a win trader. No one on our top 20 board is a win trader. And I already outlined in my first (lengthy, so you may have missed it) post, that my opinions remain unchanged even knowing that win traders could take over the top 3 spots of my board from anywhere between now and the 10th. If someone in 1st place on a small random server out there legit earned it, I will not be the one to advocate taking the card out of that person's hands.

Unless SE can unequivocally determine that every single server's top 3 were all win traders, I will stand against this point of view. I would totally be OK with the investigation bit I mentioned above to actually punish the win traders. I am not OK with a punishment directed at win traders being doled out to everyone and potentially affecting people who don't deserve it.

The format definitely does need to be changed, though.

[Curatio_Magus]

Maybe not, but I believe in innocent until proven guilty. I am not the one declaring to completely nix an entire competition based on biased point of view for whatever may or may not be happening on your server, I look at the bigger picture.

If you deny legit winners the card, you can possibly lose their sub forever. How can you not realize that some people take this very seriously?

...

Unless SE can unequivocally determine that every single server's top 3 were all win traders, I will stand against this point of view. I would totally be OK with the investigation bit I mentioned above to actually punish the win traders. I am not OK with a punishment directed at win traders being doled out to everyone and potentially affecting people who don't deserve it.

The format definitely does need to be changed, though.

A) Nobody has won or lost yet
B) If you believe that someone will unsub strictly, and only because they failed to gain a single card that they very well may not have won in the first place, hasn't actually even won yet, and will be able to win again in the future... then you must believe more subs would be lost by allowing what many believe to be cheaters winning the cards

Your argument is not valid.

You have just as much an all-or-nothing mentality as those that say "unless you can guarantee that no cheater is getting a card, then I do not support this".

Just clarifying.

[JayCommon]

You have just as much an all-or-nothing mentality as those that say "unless you can guarantee that no cheater is getting a card, then I do not support this".

Just clarifying.

Please, please quote where I said I didn't have that mentality. Actually, please quote where I said I needed clarification on my own point of view.

I fully realize that my stance is the direct opposite of the person I am debating with. Because that's what this is: a debate

My OPINIONS, (which I have stated many times that is all they are) don't hold any weight or bearing on what may or not be done. So exactly what are you clarifying? Did you make this post so you could understand it better? I mean....

Anyway...

A) This reason can also be used with the same weight, against nixing a tournament. None of you have any proof that some Triple Triad prodigy won't go 15/15 legit and beat a win trader on every single server. I mean, there are thousands of people per server right? You folks are crying wolf when you hear the howls in the night, the wolf has not even accomplished anything yet. Try again. There is still 5 days for real players to win as well.

B) I do not believe more subs will be lost due to this, because as you just said, this tournament is repeatable and will be offered again. Cheaters are going to find their ways to cheat. Should we shut the entire game down because merc's are selling content clears? SE has already said this is not even in violation of the ToS. In my opinion, it's in violation of morals, and I think they need to fix future tourneys. Don't release another tourney until the structure is sound. (you do have a valid point here though...)


So as much as my argument is invalid, neither is the person's who I responded to who wants to completely delete the competition because of his knowledge of what's going on in his server. It's equally as invalid as you attempting to single me out for sharing a differing opinion as yours. Just as you said, no one has won yet. That also includes win traders....

I am not a GM, a dev or anything else. I do not have finality over this matter. But I damn sure have the right to speak how I feel. If you don't agree with that, it's fine with me.

Just clarifying.

[Curatio_Magus]

...

My only point is that you are being just as extreme as your opposition. Not that you are indeed in opposition.

All-or-nothing statements are obvious oppositions, however, one does not need to be all-or-nothing to be in opposition.

Just clarifying.

[Edeline]

B) If you believe that someone will unsub strictly, and only because they failed to gain a single card that they very well may not have won in the first place, hasn't actually even won yet, and will be able to win again in the future... then you must believe more subs would be lost by allowing what many believe to be cheaters winning the cards

I don't think anyone would unsub for a single thing, unless that thing is the sole purpose of you subbing, which I doubt would happen with TT. However, little things add up. You could take the disappointment and move on, if it happens too often with different content, someone could end up just giving up on the game because that person might feel it's a waste of time or burnt out. Telling from experience here. I have quit games because of minor disappointments on content I was expecting and had nothing much to do outside that, except some carrot on a stick farming which made it worse, so I just decided to stop playing. I personally felt really disappointed when I saw people buying wins (and actually got the top rankings currently) that it kinda pushed me down on obtaining more grinded cards like Onion Knight or Bartz because I know I wouldn't be able to finish a collection. I know it shouldn't affect someone that much, is a minor thing but still bothers me. I'm not saying I should be given the card directly to my inventory, I would gladly earn it, but you know... actually having a chance. I like collecting stuff from games I play, I don't wanna farm for the newest items and throw away the old ones. I like storing what I've achieved the time I've played the game(s), and I always try to get whatever is at my reach to complete a game. Would this make me quit? no, but together with past events regarding "useless vanity stuff", it adds up on the list of items of collection you'll never have.

[Curatio_Magus]

I don't think anyone would unsub for a single thing, unless that thing is the sole purpose of you subbing, which I doubt would happen with TT...

I concur. The belief itself that removal of the prizes from the tournament (not individuals, as again, nobody has won or lost anything right now) solely causing unsubs is a little ridiculous. I also agree that it can be another straw to be added towards unsubbing. I would say though, that the number of straws due to the removal of prizes is less than the mass amount of straws divvied out due to allowing the issue to actually take place. It's quite obvious in assessment of comments that it's a 10:1 issue on the subject.

I felt the same as you when the issue arose. Why even finish my games? What was the point? The cheating... the limit of games played so low that it's effectively RNG... It's the knowledge that the lightning card was gained, by an overwhelming likelihood, via cheating or pure luck. It is a real downer. I also, and very honestly, feel sorry for the winners. That card doesn't represent anything but the smear of the two methods of achievement... that sucks for them.

[JayCommon]

But that doesn't affect other people. I mean, I don't care if 10 or 1000 players have bought the T9 clear, because that doesn't affect me or others.

Yeah, that won't affect any group of people who may recruit this person into their newly made FCoB static, when he doesn't know simple mechanics but knows how to run into a wall perfectly. Just because it may not affect you, does not mean it won't affect others.

The belief itself that removal of the prizes from the tournament (not individuals, as again, nobody has won or lost anything right now) solely causing unsubs is a little ridiculous.

I'm not sure if you realize that Gold Saucer has been advertised as a thing coming for over a year now. It was initially supposed to come out in patch 2.2. Obviously it got pushed back a bit, but Triple Triad was announced to be a thing many months ago.

I can probably link you multiple replies on threads in this very sub-forum with people reacting exactly like I said. This is not a belief, it is a direct representation of actual sentences I have seen written on this exact forum. I've personally talked to people who were solely waiting for Gold Saucer, and was the only reason they re-subbed to this game. You may think it's ridiculous (I do too for the record, there's more to the game than 1 piece of content), but that doesn't make it any less true. You still have a valid point about that same sentiment affecting more people inversely (people leaving because cheaters won).


It's cool though. I've said my piece. I don't really have anything else to contribute to this thread, so I don't feel the need to return. Still no cheating on Goblin, so that concise little remark made on the previous page about the information being on the internet, therefore it happens everywhere.....

Maybe you should make an alt and come corrupt Goblin too /shrug At least you can prove yourself right.

I don't mind if people don't agree with me, and my "extreme" attitude may be just as bad as the people's who advocate putting a kibash on this whole tournament. But I will stand by my opinion. I just don't like seeing people negatively affected who don't deserve it. But w/e. SE will do what they deem necessary, and either way I'll be OK with it. I didn't cheat and that's good enough for me.

Just for the record. SE has never done anything in this game since 2.0 to punish anyone who has cheated, except for the first groups beating Twintania with obvious cheat methods.

PvP win trades - nothing
Selling content clears - nothing
Selling Eternal Bond Platinum packages - nothing except a "please don't do this" message
Titan-egi tanking Ramuh - Titan was nerfed but no wins were removed

The precedence is there. Cheating in Raids seems to be the threshold to action.

Just my 50 gil. I talk to much for it to be 2 gil

[Aeyis]

I'm not sure if you realize that Gold Saucer has been advertised as a thing coming for over a year now. It was initially supposed to come out in patch 2.2. Obviously it got pushed back a bit, but Triple Triad was announced to be a thing many months ago.

I can probably link you multiple replies on threads in this very sub-forum with people reacting exactly like I said. This is not a belief, it is a direct representation of actual sentences I have seen written on this exact forum. I've personally talked to people who were solely waiting for Gold Saucer, and was the only reason they re-subbed to this game. You may think it's ridiculous (I do too for the record, there's more to the game than 1 piece of content), but that doesn't make it any less true. You still have a valid point about that same sentiment affecting more people inversely (people leaving because cheaters won).

The arguments you use in this discussion are kind of awkward because the group of people you say you represent, are actually for the most part also those affected by the cheating taking place.
Obviously, if people are cheating this much it becomes impossible for those that awaited the Golden Saucer with such anticipation, to actually obtain the prices.


That is why the belief that the removal of the prices alone would cause such a level of unsubs to happen, is ridiculous.
Because the cheating is the real issue.

[Nova_Dresden]

Yeah, that won't affect any group of people who may recruit this person into their newly made FCoB static, when he doesn't know simple mechanics but knows how to run into a wall perfectly. Just because it may not affect you, does not mean it won't affect others.

That group of 7 other people would notice him being bad and just kick him and replace him. Which in the end still would not affect me in the slightest and barely inconveniences 7 other people, but in no way does it prevent them from completing T13. If he buys his T9 clear and I somehow manage to actually compete it normally his win in no way prevents me from acquiring mine. Winning a tournament, however, is a zero-sum game. In order for someone to win everyone else has to lose. Let's say for argument's sake that only the top ten players are the ones cheating the system. One guy out of that ten cheated better and won this week and got the 140k and 3 people got the card. That's 7 out of ten cheaters that still don't have the card and will be playing the same way next week for the same odds. On top of that you don't eliminate the 3 people who did get the card from playing as well, and the likelihood they'll not do the same thing again is pretty slim since the grand prize is always 140k mgp.

I say cancel the tournament, give all the participants the consolation prize of 1000 mgp, and eliminate playing other players for the tournament if it's only going to be best point accumulation out of 15 hands. Require playing an NPC that has EVERY card in the game and apply the random rule. Best score total out of 15 hands wins the tournament.

[Shinun]

If you deny legit winners the card, you can possibly lose their sub forever. How can you not realize that some people take this very seriously?

If people were to quit that they took a card away that they might of won legitimately, then theirs just as many people who were close to the top scores before unnatural scores started filling the ranks that might quit if they reward players who cheated to get a card they would have won. SE needs to nullify this tournament or Fix the Tournament and reward the Lightning Card just this week to all participants.