i love PvP....

[sarehptar]

People don't queue because queues are too long, not because there aren't enough PvP players. The whole system is there, including the rewards, but the complaint is that people have hour long queues due to a single restriction. At the end of the day, the only fix to the situation is eliminating the Grand Company restriction in one form or the other (like Mercenaries).

Queues would not be long if a large number of people were queuing. You're just presenting a chicken and egg situation. Queues are short when PvP content is new because people get interested in it. Over time the people who are not dedicated to PvP lose interest, and queues get longer. When queues get longer, yet more people stop queuing, making queues--you guessed it, even longer! The Grand Company restriction might make Frontlines queues a bit longer than they absolutely have to be, but as Nalien said, that does not account in any way for the Wolves' Den being the deadest thing out there. There simply aren't enough people with a dedicated interest in PvP in this game to keep queue times consistently short. To solve the problem of long queues, more players need to become interested in PvP. This is all basic logic.

[Laeore]

Queues would not be long if a large number of people were queuing. You're just presenting a chicken and egg situation. Queues are short when PvP content is new because people get interested in it. Over time the people who are not dedicated to PvP lose interest, and queues get longer. When queues get longer, yet more people stop queuing, making queues--you guessed it, even longer! The Grand Company restriction might make Frontlines queues a bit longer, but as Nalien said, that does not account in any way for the Wolves' Den being the deadest thing out there. There simply aren't enough people interested in PvP in this game to keep queue times consistently short. To solve the problem of long queues, more players need to become interested in PvP. This is all basic logic.

Do you even PvP, bro? Queues are long because they're gated by GC. If you have swapped GCs, you will notice that the queue varies depending on GC. The queue isn't to pace people out of matches, but to match people up. It doesn't even make sense to try and incentivize PvEers, when you have PvPers who want to play but can't due to dat queue.

[Laeore]

The Grand Company restriction isn't what's keeping Wolves' Den dead. If it wasn't for the queue times I think Wolves' Den would actually be the best option for powering through Ranks and obtaining the gear, but yeah... No one queues for it solo...

A Mercenary system for Frontlines would be great though. I'd much rather have that than see them strip it of the Grand Company aspect, since then we wouldn't have Win Adders and the world would be a darker place... People who don't care get their faster queues, those of us who do still get our Grand Company based team. Everybody is happy.

I think the GC issue effects both Frontlines and Wolves Den. As a longtime PvP player in every game I've ever played, I rarely even Wolves Den anymore because of its imbalance. Frontlines is super fun, and most of the people I play with agree. Just can't beat dat queue.

[sarehptar]

Do you even PvP, bro? Queues are long because they're gated by GC. If you have swapped GCs, you will notice that the queue varies depending on GC. The queue isn't to pace people out of matches, but to match people up. It doesn't even make sense to try and incentivize PvEers, when you have PvPers who want to play but can't due to dat queue.

Do you even read, bro? Wolves' Den isn't gated by GC and yet has the longest queues out of all of them. What's the reason for that? It's old and no one is interested in it anymore. As Frontlines ages, less people are interested in it, and its queue times increase.

Literally what you are arguing makes no sense: "The queue is long, so it doesn't make sense to incentivize anyone new to queue." Basic computing error there, methinks.

(Also, lol @ "Do you even PvP, bro?" when the account you're posting under has fewer PvP achieves than me.)

[Laeore]

Do you even read, bro? Wolves' Den isn't gated by GC and yet has the longest queues out of all of them. What's the reason for that? It's old and no one is interested in it anymore. As Frontlines ages, less people are interested in it, and its queue times increase.

Literally what you are arguing makes no sense: "The queue is long, so it doesn't make sense to incentivize anyone new to queue." Basic computing error there, methinks.

lololol okay. So we have a problem with queue length... that you say will be intensified as more people queue. That is, the more people who PvP the longer it will take. And you think that incentives for a wider breadth of people will help people PvP more? PvEers will PvP until the rewards they want are won. PvPers will PvP as long as the match remains interesting. What PvPers don't find interesting is sitting and waiting for their queue to pop. People want to PvP more, but can't. So my suggestion is to solve that issue first before committing resources to additional incentives. I believe that the GC restriction affects queue times. I didn't bring up Frontlines or Wolves Den specifically, someone else did. Your post that I quoted didn't bring up either of them specifically either. So we were talking about PvP in general. The health of PvP. My entire point is that the queue length is the single greatest barrier to people PvPing now. Feel free to continue schooling me on "logic".

Also, I'm of the opinion that FF14 should do what SWTOR did and put all PvP under one queue option. You queue for PvP and it randomizes between Wolves Den, Slaughter, Frontlines, blah blah blah. This prevents older content from being unofficially obseletededed.

[Nalien]

I think the GC issue effects both Frontlines and Wolves Den.

It doesn't. The Grand Company restriction is solely for Frontlines. Wolves' Den had its own Rank restriction, which was piss-poorly implemented. It matched your party up based on your PvP Rank. If anything it should have matched players up based on their win ratio. Even then though, they only implemented that restriction because win traders got i100 and started stomping everyone with Morale gear, which naturally put a lot of people off. Now that Morale is much weaker there seems like little reason for the restriction to still be in place, yet there it is...

Doesn't help that Wolves' Den was split into several brackets to further compound the queue issues, with the i80 option not even being apparent since you have to unlock it by talking to an NPC with no indication that you should talk to said NPC (that's always going to irk me it seems).

Really, Wolves' Den has just been poorly handled and forgotten about. They're more interested in churning out new Frontlines versions. Secure put the last nails in Wolves' Dens coffin, Slaughter is doing the same to Secure and Slaughter seems to be largely unpopular as it is. It certainly put me off PvP.

The Grand Company restriction is certainly not helping Frontlines queues, but at the end of the day PvP is suffering because "for fun" isn't keeping people interested long enough. I'll do PvP "for fun", but it wont consistently keep me doing PvP. Likewise, the physical rewards wont keep people queuing consistently. Some people get them then stop. All of that causes queues to eventually just suffer over time and then people cannot get back in; "These queues are too long, I wont bother".

What PvP really needs is rewards which are unique to it and consistently useful. Currently the most Wolf Marks offer you once you've obtained whatever gear you want is a desynthesis option, which is nice but not everyone crafts... Appealing to e-peen seems like the best option; A proper Leaderboard system and Tournaments would keep something like Wolves' Den appealing in the long term. Something like Final Fantasy XIs Conquest system could keep Frontlines appealing as well. Instead we get new versions which are hot for a week or two, but once people move on the damage is done and queues suffer.

Also, I'm of the opinion that FF14 should do what SWTOR did and put all PvP under one queue option. You queue for PvP and it randomizes between Wolves Den, Slaughter, Frontlines, blah blah blah. This prevents older content from being unofficially obseletededed.

With Slaughter in the mix? No. I don't use the PvP Roulette because of Slaughter. If there was only one option and it might stick me in Slaughter I'd drop PvP completely.

[Laeore]

It doesn't. The Grand Company restriction is solely for Frontlines. Wolves' Den had its own Rank restriction, which was piss-poorly implemented. It matched your party up based on your PvP Rank. If anything it should have matchedplayers up based on their win ratio. Even then though, they only implemented that restriction because win traders got i100 and started stomping everyone with Morale gear, which naturally put a lot of people off. Now that Morale is much weaker there seems like little reason for the restriction to still be in place, yet there it is...

Doesn't help that Wolves' Den was split into several brackets to further compound the queue issues, with the i80 option not even being apparent since you have to unlock it by talking to an NPC with no indication that you should talk to said NPC (that's always going to irk me it seems).

Really, Wolves' Den has just been poorly handled and forgotten about. They're more interested in churning out new Frontlines versions. Secure put the last nails in Wolves' Dens coffin, Slaughter is doing the same to Secure and Slaughter seems to be largely unpopular as it is. It certainly put me off PvP.

The Grand Company restriction is certainly not helping Frontlines queues, but at the end of the day PvP is suffering because "for fun" isn't keeping people interested long enough. I'll do PvP "for fun", but it wont consistently keep me doing PvP. Likewise, the physical rewards wont keep people queuing consistently. Some people get them then stop. All of that causes queues to eventually just suffer over time and then people cannot get back in; "These queues are too long, I wont bother".

What PvP really needs is rewards which are unique to it and consistently useful. Currently the most Wolf Marks offer you once you've obtained whatever gear you want is a desynthesis option, which is nice but not everyone crafts... Appealing to e-peen seems like the best option; A proper Leaderboard system and Tournaments would keep something like Wolves' Den appealing in the long term. Something like Final Fantasy XIs Conquest system could keep Frontlines appealing as well. Instead we get new versions which are hot for a week or two, but once people move on the damage is done and queues suffer.



With Slaughter in the mix? No. I don't use the PvP Roulette because of Slaughter. If there was only one option and it might stick me in Slaughter I'd drop PvP completely.

Really well written post. I don't like Slaughter either. I just think they should have all in one queue or part them out individually. Roulette sucks as is.

[sarehptar]

lololol okay. So we have a problem with queue length... that you say will be intensified as more people queue. That is, the more people who PvP the longer it will take.

I think what I should be schooling you on is reading comprehension. Where in the world did I state anything like that? My point is the dead opposite. I don't know what weird server you are from, but where I play, queues don't get longer when more people queue, so long as there are no class restrictions. Frontlines isn't like dungeons where DPS have long queues because there are too many DPS in the game. Any party make-up can come in. So long as you have 8x8x8 or 24x24x24 from the different GCs, you would have an instant pop. The fact that we don't have instant pops for Frontlines tells you that there are not even 8 people from each GC queuing for Frontlines at any given moment. By basic math, if we could get enough people from each GC to queue for Frontlines consistently, then there would be consistently shorter queues. Maybe if we could get many other people to queue, there'd actually be enough people for multiple instances to form at once! Insta-pops for everyone! More people queuing would not suddenly clog up the system and cause everyone to wait in one long line like you seem to be imagining. This isn't Disneyland.

People want to PvP more, but can't.

Unfortunately, a few people wanting to PvP more does not make consistent full parties. And until we can constantly make full parties, queues will remain long. So long as queues remain long, people who want to PvP will continue to give up on long queues or just not queue at all. It’s my same point all over again: the number of dedicated PvPers in this game is too low for short queues. We need more dedicated PvPers to make shorter queues. I cannot state it any more simply than that.

Would removing the GC restriction from Frontlines lower queue times? Yes. I never argued that it wouldn’t. But it would not have as much of an effect as you are imagining. The Wolves’ Den—as we’ve been trying to tell you!—is proof that having no GC restriction is not enough to produce low queue times for PvP.

My entire point is that the queue length is the single greatest barrier to people PvPing now.

I agree, literally it’s what I’ve been saying this whole time. However, what I disagree with is the idea that simply removing one restriction is going to magically solve our long queue problem. The health of PvP in this game is impacted by something even more important than queue times: player interest. So long as PvP in this game continues to appeal largely to people who are dedicated PvPers, queue times will always be long. The greatest chore of the FFXIV team is not to cater to people who are already dedicated PvPers, but to find ways to make dedicated PvPers out of people who have long been dedicated PvErs. As I mentioned in my first post, I don’t believe rewards like glamor gear and mounts are working to do this. Until the team finds a way to create a type of PvP which is engaging to the biggest majority present in this game, PvP in FFXIV will continue to suffer from an overall lack of players, translating into exceedingly long queue times for dedicated PvPers.

Also, I'm of the opinion that FF14 should do what SWTOR did and put all PvP under one queue option. You queue for PvP and it randomizes between Wolves Den, Slaughter, Frontlines, blah blah blah. This prevents older content from being unofficially obseletededed.

A PvP roulette that queues you for everything you’re eligible for would be fine by me. I’d appreciate this if it were an option.

[Nalien]

You know what would get me really invested with PvP? Competing for equipment.

Not in the sense of claiming an NM or rolling a higher lot or anything, but gear you obtain in PvP and lose in PvP. Something I could constantly compete for week after week, which could be adjusted with the updates to remain relevant... Rank it lower than current endgame weapons but still fairly high (i125 for now?) so PvEers could be enticed, slap enough Morale on it to make it better than the current top PvP option and a new stat which is actually negative (so like Blood for Blood, OK you've got an awesome weapon, but you're now easier to beat) to prevent the owner from just being out right OP.

Just one per Job per server or something. The owner has to battle to keep the weapon, others battle to obtain it and it changes hands frequently as a result. Kind of like the whole Emperor concept they had in ESOs (RIP) PvP. Sandbox style content like that really is the way forward with PvP, we've got to have something to compete over given the "Everyone's a winner!" rewards we currently have... I'd certainly welcome the developers to at least try with such content even if they fail, rather than having them go "Here's our latest theme park ride! It's just as awful as Slaughter!".

[Chiramu]

I like Frontlines secure, but now all the all match that I get is 8v8v8 and Slaughter is not very fun at all. Just a boring spam fest with not much strategy involved

Slaughter is more fun than Secure(no one protected the flags to begin with...) the just plain skirmish is more fun ^^.