Sick of unjust vote dismisses

[Adire]

Yep. And whether it happens often to you for no reason, or rarely to you for no reason, it's still wrong and still points to a problem. The minority has rights too. I know it's easy to be suspicious of people who encounter it frequently as possibly being a problematic person, but stranger things have happened than a nice person being bullied repeatedly. People need to be strongly encouraged to think twice before kicking someone. Only SE can do that, and it seems judging by GM responses quoted a few posts ago, that they do not seem to be too concerned with doing that.

Harsh punishment for serious abuse of an important feature, thorough but fair enforcement and investigation, a form to fill out if the reason for the kick is not listed, and making the person being voted against an automatic No vote are what is needed. Will it eliminate this problem? No. But it will help it greatly, make the GMs' jobs easier, and increase the chances of everyone getting justice.

[Izsha]

There is the oddball occasion. It hapoens. But if it is happening frequently, (day after day. Month after month) it's you. Period. When complete strangers treat you the same way every day for months with negative reactions, you are acting in a manner against social norms.

There is no way to 100% prevent all abuse of a system. It was added because of extreme player abuse (players would do cm runs back when that was tome farming and stay in cut scene for an entire run afk and we could do NOTHING about it except carry dead weight as an example.) Abuse was extremely common and pervasive in most all content. Vote kick has virtually eliminated that problem, but itself is subject to abuse.

No system is immune to abuse. Give players no power and we are helplessly plagued by trolls (old system). Give players power and the trolls can turn to the tool to abuse. No computer system can gauge a players intent in using a tool so unless a gm is hired to babysit every instance on the server, some authority is left to players.

they can't add extreme punishments (kicked players get no lock9uts) because then it's abusable. But if players are given no power, the inability to act ruins normal play (pre vote kick Era issues).

In order to have the authority to deal with trolls ourselves, we also deal with abuse of that system. The occasional unwarranted kick is the price we pay to squelch real problems like afks and trolls with our own votekick. So yes, we do just need to "deal with it". That's the unfortunate price we pay for removing the greater hindrance of pre vote kick era idiocy.

Minority rights (in this case) is unfortunate collateral damage, but ultimately falls into the deal with it category because the good vote kick has created is immensely more important than the occasional abuse.

Tldr: this is why we can't have nice things.

[Risvertasashi]

snip!

To be fair, I think pretty much every time someone in an LS/my FC hits 50 and tries to watch CSs in the story dungeons, they get kicked. To me, that's far uglier than an oddball kick here and there that most people seem to argue against.

For the most part I do agree with you, though.

[Adire]

snip

That is bad and wrongful kicking. It also proves there are people playing the game, in decent numbers, who will kick for terrible reasons. It's the same concept. It's even worse in 4 mans when the person being voted against cannot rely on anyone to help save them. I wonder if GMs consider that a legit kick though? Someone who is watching cut scenes is playing differently from someone who is speedrunning after all.

snip

I'm not advocating removal of the vote kick feature though. I'm advocating revision of it and wondering why, at the least, people getting voted against weren't automatically counted as No votes from the beginning when the feature was first implemented. I do agree, though, if it's happening day after day after day, more often than it's not happening, then the person it's happening to is likely at fault.

I have one particular friend who is a real sweetheart though, and she's somewhat new to the game though she's gotten skilled pretty quickly. She tells me of abuse and kicking that happens to her at least once almost every week. And almost every time, it's from 2 people. Had she been counted as a No, and had the players been scared to kick her for a bad reason, she would be having a much better experience with the game than she's had so far and would likely have had 0 kicks.

I've only been kicked a few times since playing, but I can say I would have not been kicked a single time if the same thing was done. We should always strive to improve things.

[DoctorPepper]

No thanks.. vote kick working as intended. Pre-vote kick I had people going afk at the start of dungeons on a weekly basis. After vote-kick I've been abusively kicked only a handful of times. I'd prefer the later since it's affected me significantly less, just my opinion. Get rid of vote kick and prepare for the multiple people going AFK in 24 mans because they only want a specific piece of loot. I know it already happens but it would be even worse without vote kick I assure you.

[Chihaya]

There's already a limit of having a 4hr CD on initiating vote kicking to reduce the abuse. The system is not perfect - there are abuses but to me is the lesser evil compared to the pre-vote kick era - where people just join to AFK on you, and you see them nearly every single CM runs. Sometimes more than 1 player in the same run.

I don't know what else you can do, SE claims they do investigate abuse reports - how much manpower and money a MMO is willing to put into a case where it seems a small portion of the players are affected? I don't know about too many MMOs, but at least here the GM will come talk to you and ask you for more information. I played AION and TERA and all you get is a shitty automated response for harassment and cheating/hacking complaints.

[Risvertasashi]

I don't know what else you can do, SE claims they do investigate abuse reports - how much manpower and money a MMO is willing to put into a case where it seems a small portion of the players are affected?

Not that much. See the posts I quoted on the previous page... the cost of validating every vote kick would be prohibitive. Like you and other posts say, what we have now is the "least evil" of the options. Remove it and we get tons of AFK abuse, among other things.

Adire: Maybe there are some ways to improve it but thoroughly read Enkrateia's post. Enforcing narrowly defined categories means people just circumvent it, etc. And... Sorry, but to be blunt, your friend is doing something to get kicked that often. Without running with her it can be hard to pick up on what it might be, though.

Ideally there would be more review of potential abuse, but... it is what it is, I guess.

[Adire]

Well, IMO, there's no reason they can't make the simple improvement of making the person being kicked a No vote. When I was kicked from Halatali, the CNJ and his friend were in it as a premade, and the other person did not want me kicked, yet I got kicked because I had no rights as the person being voted against.

In the DD, I voted no and the healer got kicked anyways. In my experience, it's almost always 2 people. If anyone can think of a good reason why the person being kicked should have no say, and therefore another person having no say, I'd love to hear it.

Also, that's why I said a form should be used that the person initiating the vote should be forced to fill out if one of the listed reasons is not why they initiated the kick. That would solve that problem. IMO, vote kick abuse can be one of the most serious forms of abuse in the game. Blacklist can't help it, if you've contributed to the dungeon and get kicked, all you get is wasted time of your life. Devoting a respectable amount of resources to this would not be a bad decision to me.

We are paying customers, it's quite disappointing and insulting when we're told "sorry, can't help you" so quickly and easily by the people we're paying right after we've been abused and kicked with the very same feature that was implemented to be used to kick the abusers.

[Krr]

Those are not real tanks just dps abusing instant ques on their alt.

No, they aren't anything. Real DPS invest the extra ~5-10 minutes of queue in Expert roulette knowing that their competence will make the dungeon faster by at least 15 minutes.

[Risvertasashi]

Stuff!

This I can really get behind. Yes, it means someone can troll the group if they bring in a friend to make them unkickable, but they can do that now--just bring in a friend and kick people.

Personally, I'd prefer to see the balance shifted just slightly the other way--takes 2 people to click "yes" for a kick to happen, so the balance shifts slightly more towards not kicking as a default.

Probably won't happen but here's to hoping.