[Frontline]Would you vote dismiss someone. . .

[Hyrist]

So you stepped into it before reaching i80?

The only way I hit ilvl80 was through front-lines.(And a bit of LotA, ST) You can track the forums to see how I went form start to not-gimp right here in this forum section. I consulted people on the forums and asked what to do concerning a PvP - centrist character, and the recommendation that resounded the most was go ham and just dive in. I took it one step further and had a set of ilvl55 PVP gear crafted - so I went in there with around ilvl70.

As my damage was already negligible at that point, during my earliest days in front-lines I threw on Shield Oath and functioned as interference and defense only. It worked. Some of the tactics I learned during those initial fights I still use today, such as utilizing Glory Slash to push an aggressive squishy further out of position to get collapsed upon.

As I geared, I focused on learning more tactics and how to improve mechanically as well as with gear. And while my gear is caught up I can still learn things Mechanically. But now I have some rank under me, some skills augmented and have a better grip on how to preform in PvP. I would say the negative impact of my gear on front-lines as a tank was Negligible. Base stats don't seem to matter as much as secondaries and it's more about what you are doing rather than what you are wearing (within reason). At least as far as my experiences as a tank go.

This seems to be reason apparently. PVE you join a raid not knowing your role or undergeared, you're getting booted (or at the very least, flamed until you wish you hadn't shown up).

But FL gets a pass because it's lolPvP who cares.

No... you see there's a major difference between PvE and PvP.

In PvE, the fights are heavily scripted - uniform. If you meet the minimum ilvl requirements to get in, and you follow the instructions, you fine. If you can't meet the minimum ilvl then you don't get in. The Game's own mechanics insure the first half of your argument there. And as I said, gear has a minimal impact in PvP overall aside from minmaxing (wearing vit accessories as a squishy, wear str accessories as a tank, etc)

The second half, the part about not 'knowing the fight', is impossible. There is no real set video guides or tactics for PvP. Once there is one, the meta shifts to counter it. And in the end, following instructions usually follows after an understanding of the mechanics, which, in PvP, is done through experience, not instruction like PvE is.

If you'd like to host a series of PvP video guides on You Tube to encourage better play, go right ahead. But right now, they're myriad and opinionated and not nearly as concise as the ones for PvE, so yes, the expectation is different.

To follow up on your origonal question: "Where do you draw the line?"

Afkers
Those who heavily harass their own players.

And that's about it.

I don't hold PvP in disdain, but I don't hold it on a pedestal either. It's far too unrefined to expect player refinement from outside of Wolf's Den, and even when it's corrected, you have to account for a casual majority.
You can't draw the same standards for PvP in this game as you can for PvE. They're built differently.

[Red_Wolf]

For argument's sake, what if I said BS to this idea..

Starting somewhere? How about Praet and Castrum grinding like the rest of us had to back then. Easy tomes with the roulette. HM primals give i70 weapons better then the i48 cobalt crap and vintage I see on a regular basis.

Several parts of this game are locked by gear level or have a recommended gear level. FL's is an ilvl 80 sync. Before Q times hit 30+ minutes, I would say FL's was by far the best way to gear up in this game. Between spending wolfmarks on the i90 weapon and the raid token gear it is very efficient. If you don't like that newer players can earn gear faster than the way you did it 6 months ago... then all I can say is welcome to MMO's and don't get too butthurt when all your hard earned gear is turned into vendor trash with Heavensward's new level cap.

I pretty much did PvP-only from day one. I'm doing PvE a little more now and looking like a complete noob in my Ironworks gear. So far I haven’t been the cause of any wipes but I still hear chirping from time to time about a tank actually having to use a defensive cooldown in a dungeon (the horror…).

What I’m saying is people are going to join in with different levels of gear, skill, and experience. That’s what makes MMO’s great: Progression.

[Buff_Archer]

Undergeared players in Frontlines- I would not kick someone for being Undergeared if they showed an ounce of willingness to learn to play effectively with the team and were just trying to gear up. There are plenty of players who are overgreared and yet a complete liability to their team, and the difference is an undergeared person who is willing to learn will have better gear after just a few matches (unless people kick them out of every one), but a well-geared player who sucks, is still going to suck just as much after 50 matches.

Not following team strategy- This one is tricky, because people have a difference of opinion when it comes to strategy. Some people are usually right, some people are usually wrong, some are always wrong, and you'll have different people calling out conflicting objectives in the same match. A lot of people think they're in charge, but unless a full party decides someone is in charge for that party, there's no one who's the actual leader who's strategy should be followed. I've felt like kicking people before when they are off on their own and we really needed their support, but I don't feel its quite justifiable unless the person is flat out AFK'ing or botting. I'm not much of a rage quitter at all, I had < 5 rage quits total in the year and a half prior to the beginning of this year, but I had to do it yesterday in a 24 man secure match because my team kept going with the exact opposite of the most sensible decision at every key juncture. I don't expect everyone to always agree with me, or to go along with what I want, and I don't think I'm 100% correct (and some of it is guesswork about what you think the other teams would be doing if they're playing intelligently)- but if I tell the party we should do X instead of Y, because Z, and then they just choose to do Y instead with no good reason given, and we find ourselves in distant 3rd because of it- if that happens enough times in a match, I can't kick all then, but I am sure as hell not going to stick around and suffer. Rage quitting PVP is kind of a way to make the statement- 'The way this team is playing sucks so much I'd rather take a 30 minute penalty and forfeit the rewards at the end of the match than continue to be a part of it.' Hmm that could make for a good rage quit macro, if things don't improve.

[kisada]

My initial reaction often is to kick people who are really undergeared, but the fact of the matter is that this game does a horrific job of explaining acceptable entry requirements. For example, if you queue up for uncapped WD, 90% of the time you will find a bunch of players who just hit 50, because the stupid duty finder list says Lv. 50, there's a giant scroll down list that most people don't bother to read, and if you do get down there it also says level 50. A new player will have absolutely ZERO clue that this really means uncapped and players are potentially at ilvl 130. Furthermore, i80 cap WD is a hidden quest, and does a terrible job of explaining to newer players that it actually means your gear caps at 80.

So really i do my best to explain to newer players they need to be better geared for FL but that's not too hard to achieve and i don't think i've met anyone who's been unreceptive. If they were being jerks about it though then that's a problem, but really most people just don't know until they get there.

[Xenosan]

If you don't like that newer players can earn gear faster than the way you did it 6 months ago...

More like 2+ years ago. i55 is 1.0 gear and is acquired via job quest.

As I mentioned on the previous page, there are dozens of instantly accessible gear i80+ when you hit 50 (your statement enhances my point more than anything i feel).

Why the pass? Leap frogging content is fine and all when it's not at other player's expense.

You don't /facepalm when you see this happening? I don't believe that.

Setting a bar (low enough as it is) is too much? Really??

[Hyrist]

It is.

First off, there is no instantly accessible ilvl 80 gear. It must be grinded from LotA which has intermittent participation and high loot contest, especially for DPS, and has no jewelry. Same happens for everything but a tank in ST, except they suffer a lower droprate because of it.

Compound this with the fact that any crafted gear on balmung higher than ilvl 70 will go for well over 200k a piece on average, no, ilvl 80 is not readily acessible. Even dungeon drops are behind a ilvl55 wall which, no, your jewelry and weapons are not acquired via quests.

By contrast, a few frontlines matches can get you a set of ilvl70 Jewlery which will get you into those dungeons, can get you an ilvl90 weapon without having to pug a bunch of old fights. And it's an additional roulette to have to get you those bonus tomes.

Incorporating a bit of casual PvP into your routine saves you a ton of headache for negligible performance loss to the groups playing in frontlines. Case in point, earlier today: I just won a secure with a Summoner wearing all AF and level38 rings. Same character in slaughter later on, we got second.

The biggest stat difference gear gives in front lines is secondary bonuses, base stats don't factor. And with an ilvl80 cap the disparity is rather low on the onset, and the gear to catch up is cheap. There's no point in harping someone for using what's the most effective route to advance in game, so long as they're polite about it.

Draw the line at a person's attitude, not their progression status.

[Leowilde]

they don't learn to play until you give them the boot).

That's like saying people don't learn unless you hit them. I'm of the opinion people learn by experience and advice.

[Blubbers]

The biggest stat difference gear gives in front lines is secondary bonuses, base stats don't factor

Not sure you've got this right. On gear that's i80 or above, this is correct, they will all have the same primary stats when synced and only secondary stats will differ. If you're under i80 though, the reduced primary stats (especially VIT) will have a significant impact that is far more important than secondaries.

[Hyrist]

Not sure you've got this right. On gear that's i80 or above, this is correct, they will all have the same primary stats when synced and only secondary stats will differ. If you're under i80 though, the reduced primary stats (especially VIT) will have a significant impact that is far more important than secondaries.

Base statistics such as Defense and Magic Defense, however, do not factor, which is what I was getting at.

[Blubbers]

True, good point