Once you start giving out the Carbontwines

[Elazu]

Sorrik with the truth! One of the few reasonable posters on here, good stuff.

Also hilarious how you get attacked simply for being a raider. Who are the elitist monsters again?

[Badguy]

while i feel endgame , like fcob, should be more accessible to a larger base, still, in almost all mmos ever, the best gear is locked beyond the hardest content. Its only with this game i read over and over people being upset they cant get BiS gear for standing around. But anyways, you already can get 130 gear, go HUNT, im sure there are 10 PFs for it up atm.

[Dhex]

People overstate the "difficulty" of Coil. It's just as mind numbing as hunting or dungeon running after awhile...

The more variety in sources of equivalent gear the better. You get a more diverse and palatable game that way - make any one method better than all the rest and people only play that one portion of the game.

If people only logged in for a weekly Coil run Eorzea would be pretty dull.

[Synestr]

I think difficulty is a relevant term. It doesn't stay consistently difficult, once you learn it's mechanics, rotations, etc., it becomes easier. It's all scripted. We have been playing scripted games forever.

Turbo Tunnel from Battletoads was crazy hard...until you memorized the level and what was coming at you and when. Then you breezed through it. Same here. Memorize the fight and what the bosses do, etc., and you get win.

It is only difficult at first because it is new. After 5 or so runs, you learn the dance.

[Mercutial]

I think difficulty is a relevant term. It doesn't stay consistently difficult, once you learn it's mechanics, rotations, etc., it becomes easier. It's all scripted. We have been playing scripted games forever.

Turbo Tunnel from Battletoads was crazy hard...until you memorized the level and what was coming at you and when. Then you breezed through it. Same here. Memorize the fight and what the bosses do, etc., and you get win.

It is only difficult at first because it is new. After 5 or so runs, you learn the dance.

And this the major reason games like Demon and Dark Souls are considered truly difficult. Their boss fights are NOT scripted. You have to constantly be adjusting to a wide range of scenarios.

[Snugglebutt]

What I find most amusing in general is if all the hardcore raiders left the game, this game would continue on fine and I think would be vastly less toxicity within it but if all the casuals or non-hardcore raiders left this game then it would crumble and potentially die off much like Wildstar which tried to cater mostly to the hardcore crowd. Look how badly that turned out for them. I just find that amusing when see the niché hardcore raiding crowd bash the casual crowd for daring to ask that the game be improved for the majority of the player base.

It always comes back to their egos in the end with any discussion between hardcore and casual players on topics, coils for example do not need ilvl130 gear to complete coils, coils are not the only thing that benefits from ilvl130 gear as every other non-ilvl restricted dungeon, trial or raid benefits in exactly the same way. Coils are not the only way to optimize the use of ilvl130 gear or push the boundaries of what your character can output in terms of damage since any target mob with a high enough HP pool is equally as viable for such optimization. More ilvl130 set varieties or options to obtain only benefits even hardcore raiders in both the sense of more people geared up to take part in the hardcore content plus offers the hardcore raiders more choice of how to optimize and tweak their own gear composition.

The only negative consequence is to do with their egos which need not be an issue given other people with such gear obtained in other ways does not diminish the fact they cleared potentially harder content to obtain theirs, they still get their completion specific titles, they still get their hardcore clearance minions and perhaps a unique hardcore clearance mount would also be good idea but gear is not something only the hardcore raiders need, it benefits everyone including themselves if other options were opened up to obtain such despite their apparent fragile egos.

In the last few pages alone I keep seeing hardcore raiders claiming they clear high end content they deserve higher ilvl gear...no you do not deserve higher ilvl gear, you maybe deserve some 'recognition' and that comes in many forms from titles to minions, potentially some coil unique mounts would be good and unlocked achievements aka vanity things which benefits your egos but higher ilvl gear is not something you 'deserve'. That gear is equally beneficial to everyone in most areas of the game not just the hardcore crowd, it benefits everyone in the same way it benefits you and opening it up also benefits you outside of your egos. Opening it up does not diminish your achievements which are already recognized in many ways beyond gear within the game.

[Tiggy]

What I find most amusing in general is if all the hardcore raiders left the game, this game would continue on fine and I think would be vastly less toxicity within it

I disagree completely. The people I've seen act the most toxic in the game have always been the casuals who literally go ape s**t the moment you try to use a strategy or discuss anything. I mean completely go critical, start wiping groups on purpose laughing about, yelling at people, etc. Just the nastiest stuff, and it always comes from the people who hate raiders. Have I seen elitist raiders? Yeah, definitely, but the worst behaved players I've actually run into weren't the raiders at all. Heck once on t4 I was BLM and simply asking the group "Hey guys, can we please group them in the middle so me and the other BLM can AoE them?" turned into a toxic rant against us for being elitist raiders blah blah blah and then they bailed half way through a run. All because I kindly asked if we could group in the center. Some people can't take even one suggestion without flying off the handle at "raiders."

So please understand that assuming the toxic element is always the raiders is itself a prejudiced opinion that ignores reality and is itself a toxic element. People like you don't seem to realize that this prejudiced point of view only propagates the hatred between "casuals" and "raiders." Your post is full of nothing but prejudice. It's toxic and disgusting.

[Snugglebutt]

The people I've seen act the most toxic in the game have always been the casuals...

...and yet your response to my comment is filled with bias against the casual crowd citing examples as to why your own bias exists. Your reply is in essence hypocritical because it does the same thing in the first large paragraph that you claimed I was doing. Oh the irony...

[Gardes]

In the last few pages alone I keep seeing hardcore raiders claiming they clear high end content they deserve higher ilvl gear...no you do not deserve higher ilvl gear, you maybe deserve some 'recognition' and that comes in many forms from titles to minions, potentially some coil unique mounts would be good and unlocked achievements aka vanity things

That's not something for you to decide and declare. From what I read around here and in game, many people care about minions and mounts just as much as coil gear if not more. Putting vanity rewards inside raids is a disservice to the majority of the player base since they do not raid. Take the t13 clear minion for example. Granted it's a minion of an old man that many players that start in ARR probably don't care about (because they never met him) but he's a scion and he's only attainable in t13. Switch that with another scion minion like yshtola or minfillia or alisae and you WILL see people up in arms.

[Snugglebutt]

-snip-

No they don't and no they wouldn't on anywhere near the scale you claim.

Vanity items by it's nature is a lot different to gear which is actually useable in multiple areas of the game outside of ego related issues which hardcore raiders main argument has been, the recognition of clearing high end content so they deserve higher gear that so many have been using as an excuse in this thread. Vanity items are ego related, as is their stance about how they deserve what others do not have for completing high end raid content...vanity items fit that bill perfectly.

Gear on the other is not something that is ego limited if go back and read what I actually said earlier when I explained my position. What I said benefits them and benefits others while at same time does not diminish their accomplishments plus satisfies their egotistical desire via vanity items and/or features of the game that already exist to satisfy their egos outside of gear itself. My response was towards the hardcore raiders argument and stance that they have been putting forth in last few pages, plus explains how their stance contains a lot of fallacious elements to it on top of further explaining that they would benefit from such changes suggested in this thread.