Once you start giving out the Carbontwines

[Shurrikhan]

Certain pieces of Demon gear if upgradable to ilvl 130 could easily outdo some of the FCOB gear, but so can Poetic and penta-meld pieces. I see no issue with some additional gear choices, but I do think they should be kept sparse... That being said, an optimal i130 Ninja pants/chest would simply take 2 weeks' of tomes and a WoD carbontwine each to acquire, so for classes with better secondary stat choices on tome gear, a BiS chest is only two weeks' of tomes already. Given that, the most I can really argue for in order to increase the variety of top-end gear choices would be to require some tome expenditure for the WoD i130s. /shrug

I can understand why people would want FCoB gear to be the only true BiS, but as it is, fully melded crafted gear will often weigh equally FCoB gear in many slots, and tome gear will often outweigh it. (For further example, a WoD bard chest will outweigh the FCoB bard chest even at i120.) As it stands, there is no guarantee that gear requiring some manner of 'accomplishment' will be any better than ones that do not. One additional gear set option will not change a paradigm that does not actually exist.

[Sorrik]

I've never heard anyone in my life say that quote, but you can continue to view raiders as you like. The stigma is there regardless of what I do. Let me tell you what should actually happen to someone who just cleared Titan HM for the first time though. That individual gets loot drops they can roll on, no? Well there ya go. They just EARNED something that is not the best iLvl but iLvl APPROPRIATE to what they just accomplished. If I earned the gear at that level, there is no shame in wearing it. If I RECIEVED not earned iLvl 130 gear (best in the game depending on respective gear sets) for stalking LS notifications for hunts (literally no effort required only thing mandatory for this is that you log in and manage to tele before the fast-pullers), I personally feel that I am now a phony.

[Sorrik]

Essentially what I am saying to you is - If you feel shame wearing lower level gear that you earned playing lower skill material, then that is a personal issue. The name for that feeling is Envy. Some say it is one of the 7 deadly sins. You personal feelings should not impact the game world. If anyone is that upset they can't get higher level gear because it is reserved for the harder content, then any reasonable (IMO) person would figure out a way to earn it the proper way in whatever amount of time they have.

[Gardes]

Clearly the solution is to remove the upgrade system. Going with the current example...we would have coil gear be i130, 24man gear be i120, tome gear be i120 at its max and not upgradable. What it'll do:

-max i150 ilvl will not be bis
-non crafted bis will be middling at i145ish
-'bis' for non coil goers is max i140 and they wont have to deal with hunts
-tome gear will be dyeable from the get go
-argument between raiders and non raiders on who 'deserves' what ilevel is eliminated

[Sorrik]

As it stands, there is no guarantee that gear requiring some manner of 'accomplishment' will be any better than ones that do not. One additional gear set option will not change a paradigm that does not actually exist.

You are 100% right in respect to FFXIV. This debate has been around years longer than FFXIV has been though. Others and I referenced WoW earlier. This topic will be around for as long as the casuals (yes, I use this slur) feel they are entitled to what they did not work for. Entitlement is all this argument comes down to in the end. Entitlement and Envy.

[Shurrikhan]

You are 100% right in respect to FFXIV. This debate has been around years longer than FFXIV has been though. Others and I referenced WoW earlier. This topic will be around for as long as the casuals (yes, I use this slur) feel they are entitled to what they did not work for. Entitlement is all this argument comes down to in the end. Entitlement and Envy.

Mm. I by no means would dislike the idea of Dreadwyrm gear ending up 135 (not just weapons but armor as well) somehow, but more than that I just want more than half of the pieces to be itemized or itemize-able more appropriately.
Altogether, I'd like more gearing control and a bit more ease of optimization - preferably without easing the requirements to reach top ilvls. Tome gear, or 'entry' / 'auxiliery' gear, should have its place in approaching 'reward' / 'raid' gear beyond simply being eventual BiS choices for whose slots you just hope not to loot Dreadwyrm pieces, grabbing instead those that will compliment it in some BiS set that you might never finish, due to simple RNG, before the gear has been out-patched. But this would probably take more than a little redesign, almost akin to a very, very minor version of relic improvements, using a resource gained automatically and perhaps itemlessly from raiding/high-end usage...
For now all I can say here is that when both tome and dropped gear have absolute shit secondaries, I can't help but wish there was a viable third choice. Although I have yet to clear this patch's endgame, my wanting i125-i130 WoD pieces doesn't come from wanting a high item level more easily, but simply a better BiS ceiling for those jobs where both sets are kinda trash.

:: Anything to reduce the need (for those statics who haven't been farming FCoB since week 4 or earlier) to hunt I strongly support as well... But that part is out of laziness.

[Synestr]

Hmm, entitlement. Seems to go both ways.

Elite raiders are entitled to be the ONLY ones that can have the best gear through beating "hard" content.
Casual non raiders are entitled to equivalent gear through different avenues, less "hard" content.

It's like a he said, she said. Get over it. If you have the gear great, if not get it or something equivalent.

SE, remove content from the game that doesn't invalidate the time and effort put froth by either of these groups to earn gear.
This is what we all want right? Or we prefer to bicker endlessly over the same sh*t over and over again, regardless of venue?

[AxelDH]

It would be nice to have some ilvl 130 World of Darkness pieces, for the cases where the Poetics & Dreadwyrm alternatives aren't so great....

Now that regular Carbontwines and coats aren't so special, maybe each turn of Final Coil could start dropping Carbontwine of Darkness!

[Deviant1]

You don't even know what you're talking about.

Do you really think we're slacking the rest of the week after cleaning FCoB ? The top CLs are doing hardcore optimisation for their jobs and rosters, speedkills, solohealing, etc.

The i130 is/should be an achievement AND a tool for raiders, better call us elitists if you want, I just don't know why a lot of ppl want top ilvl gear without any useful way to use it.

Now, can you answer, why do you need i130 gear as non-raider ? i120 is enough for what you're doing, it will be enough for the 3.0 too.

Well perhaps if the 'raiders' stopped thinking of themselves as so special for a minute and realized there are others playing the game, we wouldnt have such a toxic community.

SE could always solve the issue with a ilvl cap on all content to the top tome purchasable gear ilvl (IE 120 atm) so that their precious raid gear was only full strength in raid? you know the whole 4 fights per 6 month period.
Aww, dont like that, well if you dont need 130 in other content, then why you about to complain?

Just because you play team jump rope for your one chance for a coffer doesnt make you better then anyone. sorry, welcome to planet 'your not special'

[KarmaCha]

I will never understand why people care so much what gear other people are wearing. Seriously. Does someone wearing i130 devalue your accomplishments in final coil? No. If it does, you're raiding for the wrong reasons.

This whole argument about optimization vs fun is stupid, because it doesn't matter what you think. It matters what SE thinks. And they've already given casual players i130 through hunts. And they'll continue this motif because this is one of the most casual MMOs on the market.

Yes, i130 gear is great for theorycrafting and optimizing your build, but that is not the only purpose it serves. It is the purpose *you* attribute to it. Someone else might want i130 so they can finally solo heal Titan EX, help FC members through T9 with more room for error, etc.

Should WoD be upgraded to i130?

I don't care. And neither should you, really.

The point of doing challenging content like Coil is supposed to be for the feeling of accomplishment you get with a group of friends. Not to lord pixels over other people.

And you are seriously kidding yourself if you think, in terms of gear, at this point, people are doing coil for i130. They're doing it for the blue and gold.