Serious Discussion of PVP Game Theory (and why it's broken)

[DividedSky]

You also had massively long queue's that many people complained about, maybe it was well balanced but it was very low pvp population for a reason. Wolves Den leveling system and gear system was not friendly to new players and heavily favored players with higher level and gear. If you took out the PvE systems you might have a mode that lasts longer because the high level/high geared players aren't killing their own game mode.

All of the necessary changes to moral and PvP skills have been made to fix wolves den. The only thing they new to do now is revert back to thier original queue bins... 30s, 40s, 50s. Get rid of the i80 crap in the den...it doesn't belong in den... and remove rank matching. I can't stress this enough its so simple of a fix.

[Atreus]

Get rid of the i80 crap in the den...it doesn't belong in den...

You think so? I thought it was a good move to try to encourage people to play, they just didn't advertise it right... (ie., people still don't even know it exists)

[DividedSky]

You think so? I thought it was a good move to try to encourage people to play, they just didn't advertise it right... (ie., people still don't even know it exists)

Absolutely, all it is is an incentive for players who just hit 50 to join pvp sooner than they really should I.E. before they put the time in to learn the class and get good gear. Furthermore having 4 different pvp ques fragments the arenas so badly that it loses critcal mass and as a result no one ques at all. I think they should remove I80 sync, and I personally think they should removed matched/light party separation as well. The less options to que for in this case the better the chances of ques poping quickly and people actually participation. (people will complain about "pre-mades" but thats just part of the game... people will learn to deal with it... get better.. find friends.. and defeat the other pre-mades in time) They dont need to separate noobs and veterans in an already low populated part of the game. I'll say it again and again but even before they started with all these "fairness" changes to separate pre-mades, and rank matching etc etc ques still poped and they were pretty fast.... now they dont pop at all.. they need to remove the restrictions. Noobs complain they dont have a chance... restrictions put int place... no one ques... now noobs can't even play .. ... restrictions must be removed. ESPECIALLY rank matching.

[Soralin]

I think what we need is a good 8v8 map.

If the maps were just 1 team vs another, not 3 teams, literally all of these problems would disappear.

Getting 2v1d is a constant threat, and most importantly 14 will never ever EVER see slaughter OR secure taken seriously by pro gamers for this very fact.

Lets say we somehow get secure up to pro tier, and MLG takes a look at it.

Team A is awesome, Team B is meh. And... Team C just sits and feeds team B all day long. Team B wins, but not through skill but just because they got lucky and had the crappy players fighting them, and they got fed.

This is why every single pro game that people take seriously is always 1 team vs another, 1v1 can be taken seriously because a third wheel team cant come in and ruin everything.

[CeveArthu]

I think what we need is a good 8v8 map.

If the maps were just 1 team vs another, not 3 teams, literally all of these problems would disappear.

Getting 2v1d is a constant threat, and most importantly 14 will never ever EVER see slaughter OR secure taken seriously by pro gamers for this very fact.

Lets say we somehow get secure up to pro tier, and MLG takes a look at it.

Team A is awesome, Team B is meh. And... Team C just sits and feeds team B all day long. Team B wins, but not through skill but just because they got lucky and had the crappy players fighting them, and they got fed.

This is why every single pro game that people take seriously is always 1 team vs another, 1v1 can be taken seriously because a third wheel team cant come in and ruin everything.

As someone who was both employed by ESL and had some minor success in competitive gaming, It would take a LOT more effort than a bigger pvp community and proper balancing before MLG would look at it, The onus would be on for Square Enix to approach MLG with an interaction plan before MLG would consider supporting ff14 (not to mention the package incentive for MLG, although i am unsure what their standard costs are compared to ESL)

Your comments that a 3rd team really takes away from any real competitive format is pretty much undeniable, for this reason I too would never expect slaughter or secure to ever be picked up as a competitive format (although FL scrims were really fun when people got together)

I feel what you are asking for is akin to the man that build his house on the sand, You want to build an impressive house and the scope of what you want the format to be in the long term, but you are not looking at the foundations of the format (and extending on this, not considering the attitude SQenix, the builders of this house, has towards PvP)

Considering FL as a competitive format, before its more viable brother that is wolves den has had zero direct support for probably 6 months, is a very futile idea in my eyes. Once you look at Wolves den, see the posting history of this forum section and see the same common complaints crop up over and over about lack of support and also see the almost non-existent interaction the devs have with the pvp community, you will realize that there are no foundations for pvp to be remotely supported by any external company like MLG and ESL.

We need to change SE's attitude to PvP before anything else, otherwise there is an almost absolute chance that any support will inevitably fail

[Doritos1821]

Furthermore having 4 different pvp ques fragments the arenas so badly that it loses critcal mass and as a result no one ques at all. I think they should remove I80 sync, and I personally think they should removed matched/light party separation as well. The less options to que for in this case the better the chances of ques poping quickly and people actually participation. (people will complain about "pre-m

That is exactly why I'm worried about future PvP of this game. Adding new rules/modes for PVP is great but on the other hand, the other PVP modes will die out since the population is low, at least for NA/EU datacenters. Im most certain that JP datacenters are more active in PVP but I'm not sure how Wolves Den and Frontline (Secure) are doing there.

[CeveArthu]

That is exactly why I'm worried about future PvP of this game. Adding new rules/modes for PVP is great but on the other hand, the other PVP modes will die out since the population is low, at least for NA/EU datacenters. Im most certain that JP datacenters are more active in PVP but I'm not sure how Wolves Den and Frontline (Secure) are doing there.

PvP on Gaia is crazy at some hours, the queues are almost instant

I want this and EU servers so much Q_Q