A little late to the party.

[Kosmos992k]

Since someone already referenced George Carlin I'll add that he also once asked: "Why is it that everyone that drives faster than me is a maniac and everyone that drives slower is an idiot?"

That's all fine and good, but here is the problem, if you are so jaded after doing certain content so many times, then that content isno longer of interest to you, so why is it a positive thing for that very content to be destroyed for all other players? Leaving it unbalanced in order to please one group who not only over gear the living crap out of the content, but could probably not care less about running it since they've run it so many times, makes that same content just as pointless for other players. That is a lose lose proposition if ever there was one.

In your example of 7 veteran player carrying a new player through titan, no one is enjoying that run. It's a chore for the veterans, and a boring, mindless blur for the new player who hasn't got a clue how to actually run it. On the other hand if there was an ilvl sync, then the folks running it would actually have to pay attention to mechanics, the new player would have to participate and learn something. By all means SE should provide ways to grind out the needed light/demimateria/whatever, but doing it by obliterating the point of early content seems wasteful.

By the logic you're applying, new players might as well start at lvl 50 in their chosen profession and proceed from their with full myth and a Novus weapon since all the prior content is about as useful as a chocolate tea-pot.

[Darsho]

Yeah, even if they synced the ilvl down to i110 or even i100 for that matter, HM primals would probably only die one minute slower and for some reason that'll be enough to get all the light farmers PO'd and get the entire community's collective panties in a bunch (again).

That said HM primals with even 1 new dps, especially Garuda, is a different matter. Slightly more attention must be given to the mechanics since you can wipe if there aren't enough dps alive to burn down Garuda as just 1 down can be enough to prevent that from happening, plus even veterans still don't understand how to dodge in Titan lol. Run the hard mode primals enough times and you'll see teams like this.

@ OP good luck with the extreme primals! They all still present a decent challenge since there is no more ignoring of the mechanics and there's still fun to be had there, or it could be not so fun depends on who you're asking I guess.

[Milmoko_Gemoko]

Without reading the whole thread I have to have to say isnt this going to be a moot point in a few months anyway?

With level cap going up to 60 I'd assume our currently over powered i100+ gear is in for a serious re-evaluation and downgrade to accomadate lv60 and new gear or at least I hope it is as having gear thats twice as powerful as level cap seems crazy to me.
But this is my first MMO so maybe someone can explain what happens when expansions come out and lv cap goes up in other games 0_o

So hopefully our newly de-leveled gear will make HM Primals and Dungeons a little more fun/challening... til we get the new Havenesward gear at least lol

[KaedrianLiang]

that's because everyone wants to ignore all mechanics and just tank and spank everything. i lost count of how many times my DF finder groups wiped trying to beat ultros to get that minion.

make a PF group, advertise that the group will run it 8 times so everyone gets one. Over those 8 successful runs the group sharpens its edge on mechanics and experience with the fight. Don't allow notorious quitters to join the pt.

[Purrfectstorm]

That's all fine and good, but here is the problem, if you are so jaded after doing certain content so many times, then that content isno longer of interest to you, so why is it a positive thing for that very content to be destroyed for all other players?

"Not of interest" depends on your point of view. The HM primals are not the most interesting thing to do anymore and I've probably run each of them around 500 times (just a guess). Without demimateria, light, trial roulette bonuses, helping others, etc. I probably would never touch them again. But SE has chosen to keep older content relevant (most likely so new players can actually get queues for it, not relevant = no queues, think about that...) Anyway, since the content has been kept relevant by whatever method and for whatever reason, it is "of interest" to me for rewards even though no longer for the experience. Think of all the unfun grinds people do in MMOs for some reward and you'll understand what I'm trying to say. So your point about the content no longer being of interest to me is wrong in the only sense that matters: I will most likely end up doing the content again.

Your other point about "destroying it for new players" depends on point of view again. I remember wiping for 5 hours on Titan HM when I totally understood the fight. I was tanking it in DF and tanking it was easy. The whole fight just boiled down to wait around and see if people can dodge or not. That was very boring even before higher gear levels, echo, etc. If you're a new player and are held back in old content because others can't do the fight, I think that is a bad experience. It's all subjective of course but I'd much rather tank and spank a primal and get onto more fun things than wipe for hours. I'd much rather tank and spank a primal than not get a queue at all.

As for your final point about content then being pointless, I don't necessarily disagree, but I have to argue that it's again subjective. Some people are looking for challenging content and yes for them HM primals are pointless now. If you're doing content for story, gear, mats, etc. however, the HM primals are very much NOT pointless. The game has a very eloquent solution to challenge and that's the newest content that is released. That is the part of the game that players have to get to if they're looking for a challenge (pretty much no matter the game, old player or new). I will argue that's as it should be. The alternative is to have new players stuck far behind veteran players.

I feel as though you're upset that your proposed solution would not work and others are making logical arguments for why it would not work. Was it because you did a HM primal with an outdated video guide and ran around like a chicken with its head cut off, had no idea what was going on, and the other 7 players could beat the fight blindfolded without you? Well wait until you get to harder content where those 7 people depend on you to beat the content, you mess up and the group kicks you or disbands after a couple of attempts.

The reason I quoted George Carlin is to point out that everyone has their own pace: some are fast, some are slow, some complain the game is too easy (tank and spank), others complain it's too hard. I think it's wrong in a game like this with all different kinds of content that players want every piece of content appeal to them personally.

[Kosmos992k]

Your other point about "destroying it for new players" depends on point of view again. I remember wiping for 5 hours on Titan HM when I totally understood the fight.... If you're a new player and are held back in old content because others can't do the fight, I think that is a bad experience.

I completely understand that, it was a blocker for many including myself until I learned the fight and beat it (before echo arrived).

I feel as though you're upset that your proposed solution would not work and others are making logical arguments for why it would not work. Was it because you did a HM primal with an outdated video guide and ran around like a chicken with its head cut off, had no idea what was going on, and the other 7 players could beat the fight blindfolded without you?

No, actually, I beat Titan tanking it as an ilvl 70-something PLD, without watching a video. I wasn't carried, I stunned Tummult, dodged the bombs etc...because I learned the fight, and worked with the team who were with me. I was not proposing to return the fight to it's full original difficulty. With Echo and ilvl 90 gear, Titan HM should still be very straightforward for a new player who has limited knowledge of the fight. That said, I'd be happy with a sync to ilvl 100 instead of 90 even. The point of my suggestion is to make it so that it's not possible to totally ignore the mechanics of the fight.

Well wait until you get to harder content where those 7 people depend on you to beat the content, you mess up and the group kicks you or disbands after a couple of attempts.

Maybe you should stop making assumptions about me before you make a complete fool of yourself?

The point of my suggestion, and participation in this topic is that I dislike that a lot of the early lvl 50 content and hard mode trials have become trivial to the point of irrelevance to the game. It limits the amount of content in the game that is engaging to play. My suggestion was aimed at restoring some of the difficulty to to make that content more engaging to play. Think about Arum Vale. Because of level sync, it still retains much of the difficulty, even though you're sync'd by 1 level, your gear is sync'd by almost 80 levels, and it retains some of it's edge. Imagine running AV without that level sync. How much of the dungeon could be ignored, how long would a run take if players can simply run from boss to boss to complete it, as well as ignore some/all of the boss mechanics?

[Kazumac]

Also I think with MMOs you shouldn't think late to the party. It is an ever changing game. If you didn't play during X months you won't ever get to have those experiences, but you do get to have the experience of the game right now. It is different than before and will be different yet again in the future.

The current state when you hit 50 is to push you through earlier content ASAP to get you to the point you can enjoy the most recent and relevant content in the game. In a way it's a nice design option. You may feel rushed initially but in no time you'll be there swinging away at the most recent stuff

[Ashkendor]

You mean....if there was some form of ilvl sync, people would...have to actually *play* the content? Shocking!

No, but seriously, why does everything have to be done so damned quickly? If you actually had to do the mechanics it might make the fight a bit longer, but you know, you might actually have to...um...think and...er...work together. That's a whole lot more enjoyable - and inline with the point of an MMORPG - than burning the boss, ignoring mechanics, and raising the dead afterwards.

You did have to think and work together back when the content was pertinent. You're talking about content that's a year and a half old now. The days of it being a challenge are long since past, which had the potential to leave newer players completely out of luck when it comes to getting through it. SE has taken care of this by funneling veterans back into it with the relic progression quests and with the tome rewards on roulettes.

Atma puts us into FATEs, Animus puts us mostly into low level dungeons, Novus just makes us spend a metric crapton of gil and soldiery, Nexus makes us farm the HM primals and other trials for light, and Zodiac throws us into mostly higher level dungeons. Without the veteran players being shuffled back into this content, odds are that new people would have to wait a hell of a lot longer in the queue. Nexus requires 2000 light to complete. Downing Garuda in 3 minutes vs. downing her in 6 minutes makes a huge difference. If a level sync was put in for that, people would simply find a faster way to farm light and newbies would be waiting a lot longer for the trials for their base relic.

I've completed 2 Zodiac relics now, and honestly the Nexus grind was the longest part of it. You ask why everything has to go so quickly? I ask you: knowing the grind we have to do, why make it take any longer than it has to? Is it really any different? Newer people are able to complete the trial. Sure, they aren't able to experience it as it was back in the day, but that's the way things go in a vertical progression game.

[Sapphic]

Odin fight is very reminiscent of Titan HM back in 2.0.

Give it a try, tis a fun fight. Similar fight in ways, Single target hard hit on tank. check (mountain buster), AE party damage, check. Tight DPS check..err check! People not dodging AEs, check :P

[Kosmos992k]

You did have to think and work together back when the content was pertinent. You're talking about content that's a year and a half old now. The days of it being a challenge are long since past, which had the potential to leave newer players completely out of luck when it comes to getting through it.**snip** I ask you: knowing the grind we have to do, why make it take any longer than it has to? Is it really any different? Newer people are able to complete the trial. Sure, they aren't able to experience it as it was back in the day, but that's the way things go in a vertical progression game.

I know that we will see this differently, which is totally not a problem. In answer to the "why make it take longer than it has to" question. I think that the thing is that the question is a bit loaded since my thought is not to make it take longer than it has to, but to make the content more engaging.

What I am meaning is that I would like the content in the game to be actively re-balanced so that as we progress through the rest of the game - the vertical progression you mentioned - the older content remains viable. The aim of the level sync in the dungeons below level 50 is to ensure that all players are more or less on a level playing field so that a new level 30 player running Brayflox (for example) is not utterly irrelevant because there is a level 50 ilvl 130 bard along who can practically run the dungeon solo. It's not ideal, but it works pretty well.

But after level 50 it get's pretty stupid because of the ludicrous overgearing possible on things like Wanderer's Palace. The contrast in difficulty between running AV and WP with the exact same party is night and day. I'm not saying AV is difficult, just that it requires thought to play vs WP which really doesn't - because of overgearing.

When you start thinking about the amount of content that is potentially rendered irrelevant by this issue, it's really quite a lot, and ultimately pretty ironic that a level 49 dungeon can represent a far, far greater challenge than something like titan HM which previously was a notorious roadblock for players.

So, my thought, is not to make things take longer but to rebalance things to maintain relevance and engagement.

I've been thinking about going to Behemoth, it seems like such a lively and fun server, a lot more fun than drab Lamia. :v But overall I kinda am giving up on progression at this point, to me it's not very fun any more. It's becoming more of a chore to just do the same tome grind every week for just one piece of gear. I hope when Gold Saucer comes out I'll be happy to play some more. But right now I kinda don't care since I see no benefit in Final Coil when the expansion is coming out soon. We were already told we don't need to complete FCoB in order to enjoy it. I am slowly losing my patience with the game due to the ill tempered people that play on it sadly.

Well, Behemoth is a pretty good server, though I have to admit I have not played even half as much as I want to (not even close) recently due to RL issues and RL busy...but if you come to behemoth, look me up.

As for final coil, I kind of gave up on progression a while back when a close friend ran into a problem with Titan HM (prior to 2.1) and even though they beat titan, the aftermath robbed them of their enjoyment and confidence in the game. It was at about that time that I realized that there were two ways to play this game, and the much more hardcore progression minded players had their way, and that way was not for me. It's just too business like and in some ways callous. If you're not part of the in-crowd (in a stable static) it's very hard to progress.

So I started playing that game more for fun, and less for progress. It's a Final Fantasy game after all, and pretty open ended, so as long as I do not lose the ability to play through the main story, I'm happy just playing with whatever takes my fancy. I can't wait for Gold saucer, and the idea of taking a small group of Grand Company NPCs through a dungeon actually sounds like more fun that running into a speed run group through DF.

People say that this is a theme park game. That's great, so please let's not close down any of the rides, even if the people lined up for the triple corkscrew annihilator ride no longer enjoy the lesser attractions.