White Mage vs Scholar - Why is White Mage lacking?

[Brightshadow]

I don't really understand why everyone thinks WHMs need more MP stuff. The only issues I've run into with MP issues is either with Holy Spam, Rezz spam, or death.

And Bene doesn't really need to be changed. I don't find the "lag" on it to be an issue at all. It's not that hard to figure out, and it's easier to just ignore the animation all together. Or see it as a very, very short cast time.

Well there two reasons for this, first off the MP management of a White Mage is limited while a Scholar can run things without many MP issue not just because of the recast of our shroud but also because of the potency and because they have energy drain.

As for the bene. we have 2 unfair advantages vs the scholar lust. first off they get 3 lust every minute which is basically like a bene., and our recast is much higher than lust. And to top it off they don't have animation lag so if the tank is at 10% health they have a better chance of saving them with lust. than our bene.

And your also forgetting that Scholar has two healers when it comes to themselves and eos so they are basically gods when compared to white mages and anyone that thinks overwise is crazy because white mage will never be able to compete with a equal ilv scholar unless the battle requires a lot of AOE healing. The only reason why White Mages aren't replaced is like said in the thread x 2 scholar don't work very well and we only have 2 healing classes but with astrologian that could be the death of white mage.

[VanilleFang]

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That may be true, about Benediction cast time, but its still on the WHM for casting it too late. You completely glossed over that Lustrates heal 25% health (3 = 75% not 100%) and they use Aetherflow. This may not seem that bad as "omg they can spam 6 in a row (depending on aetherflow CD)" or whatever, but Aetherflow is used for Bane and Sacred Soul as well. Lustrate may be instacast and such but I feel its balanced out well. I wouldn't be against a buff to Benediction though.


That's the point though, WHM is a much better AoE healer. They heal the group much better than a SCH could ever hope too.

And again people are making assumptions that Astrologian will be like a WHM more than a SCH, or just something different that works well with both so thus WHM is out (?). I could easily say that Astrologian could come in and be the death of SCH, by being the strongest Single Target healer and they could have strong party buffs and a mitigation shield. Chances are they won't be like this, but I can still say it.

Saying SCHs are like "gods" is a HUGE exaggeration. If they are so much better than WHM then why are there so many more WHMs compared to SCHs running around? Mechanics? Shouldn't matter, because they are "gods".

Also, why would it be the death of either? If people are going to play it'll still be around. Look at Summoner right now. Its lacking and people don't like where its at right now, but its still around and people still use it even though there are better DPS(ie. all of them) currently.

[Cynfael]

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You're replying to the same person who started a huge, contentious thread about whether or not Cleric Stance should be disabled for group PvE content; expecting a fair and reasonable assessment of how the healer jobs compare to one another is probably asking too much.

That probably isn't the nicest way to say it, but I'm not very sympathetic to people who go on about WHM's supposed MP problems (good WHM's don't have them under normal circumstances) and lack of ability compared to SCH (SCH may be able to split heal and off-DPS like crazy, but 300-550 upfront potency AoE heals to recover the raid in time to deal with the next mechanic? Not so much).

[VanilleFang]

You're replying to the same person who started a huge, contentious thread about whether or not Cleric Stance should be disabled for group PvE content; expecting a fair and reasonable assessment of how the healer jobs compare to one another is probably asking too much.

That probably isn't the nicest way to say it, but I'm not very sympathetic to people who go on about WHM's supposed MP problems (good WHM's don't have them under normal circumstances) and lack of ability compared to SCH (SCH may be able to split heal and off-DPS like crazy, but 300-550 upfront potency AoE heals to recover the raid in time to deal with the next mechanic? Not so much).

Oh. Is that who that is? I had no idea.

Ha. Well, that was a waste of time.

[Slib]

... and lack of ability compared to SCH (SCH may be able to split heal and off-DPS like crazy, but 300-550 upfront potency AoE heals to recover the raid in time to deal with the next mechanic? Not so much).

What? Succor is an up front 150 potency heal, with a 150 shield. take that shield as preparing for disaster to come soon. Also the ability to mitigate 10% of the damage dealt from AoE with a sacred soil. Depending on how much damage the group took, that could act as another 150 potency ( around 5000 damage mitigated to 4500 from sacred soil). Along with the AoE being magic damage? Let's increase the groups magic defense to reduce it even FURTHER... I think both are quite good at AoE healing, especially with +30% and +20% whispering dawn acting like an AoE REGEN spell with divine seal.


Aside from your post Cynfael, I remember people saying good luck on T12 healing the AoE in that as a scholar or double scholar. Well, a scholar solo healed the whole fight. Scholar also solo healed Shiva EX 4 man. Where are the White Mage videos? Did I miss them or have there just not been any able to do it? I mean, since the white mage population is bigger, wouldn't more be trying to solo heal these?

[Sebazy]

I remember people saying good luck on T12 healing the AoE in that as a scholar or double scholar. Well, a scholar solo healed the whole fight.

<key detail> The SCH solo heal was 3 Bennu's </key detail> thus the AE healing portion of phase 3 was trivialised to succor and forget status. Overall it's an encounter with a pretty low healing requirement providing people handle the mechanics right.

[Slib]

<key detail> The SCH solo heal was 3 Bennu's </key detail> thus the AE healing portion of phase 3 was trivialised to succor and forget status. Overall it's an encounter with a pretty low healing requirement providing people handle the mechanics right.

Even with 4 bennus you'd get to ~ 11 stack on pheonix which isn't that bad to deal with as scholar alone. It's after the 12th stack is when **** starts to hit the fan.

[Cynfael]

Snip

Succor alone doesn't cut it as a massive AoE heal, and neither does Whispering Dawn. They are excellent tools when used appropriately, but they do not work the same way as Medica, Cure III, or even Medica II. A SCH flat out cannot equal a WHM in instant AoE HP restoration, and there are times when you need that AoE burst.

Sacred Soil isn't worth mentioning in this conversation; it's only relevant in situations where the incoming damage cannot be healed, and even then SCH tools aren't well suited to recovering a raid from 1% HP to full in moments.

[Slib]

Succor alone doesn't cut it as a massive AoE heal, and neither does Whispering Dawn. They are excellent tools when used appropriately, but they do not work the same way as Medica, Cure III, or even Medica II. A SCH flat out cannot equal a WHM in instant AoE HP restoration, and there are times when you need that AoE burst.

Sacred Soil isn't worth mentioning in this conversation; it's only relevant in situations where the incoming damage cannot be healed, and even then SCH tools aren't well suited to recovering a raid from 1% HP to full in moments.

They prevent damage overall which was what I was trying to get at. Damage Preventing will reduce future healing required. You are still getting EHPS from the succors for lets say, Mega Flare into a Rage of Bahamut. You can also have a sacred soil down for both hits too AND a breath on the tank also. That mitigation helps pick scholar up to the point where they can't burst heal like a White Mage. That is my point. If the damage is dealt and people need a pick me up ASAP then yes, white mage cure 3 is godlike. But, in most, if not all situations, a lot of damage prevention with a Whispering Dawn as an after effect of picking everyone up over time is highly effective.

[Cynfael]

They prevent damage overall which was what I was trying to get at. Damage Preventing will reduce future healing required. You are still getting EHPS from the succors for lets say, Mega Flare into a Rage of Bahamut. You can also have a sacred soil down for both hits too AND a breath on the tank also. That mitigation helps pick scholar up to the point where they can't burst heal like a White Mage. That is my point. If the damage is dealt and people need a pick me up ASAP then yes, white mage cure 3 is godlike. But, in most, if not all situations, a lot of damage prevention with a Whispering Dawn as an after effect of picking everyone up over time is highly effective.

I'm very familiar with how SCH mitigation works, and there are plenty of situations where working with a WHM is way more efficient. There are good reasons why player max HP and the presence of a WHM are of concern in certain fights.

Edited because I'm not sure exactly what we're debating here. My main point is that there are obviously things that WHMs do better and/or differently than SCHs and that WHMs still don't need "fixing" beyond allowing Shroud to scale with Max MP going forward.