Summoners from a gameplay perspective

[Winterclaw]

Okay, this thread is about discussing how squenix could implement summoners from a practical standpoint, so lore issues can and should be ignored in this thread. Gameplay comes before lore.

At the moment I can think of 4 ways of having a summoner class but there can be a few more.

1. Old School Summoners (FF9 and before)
In this form, the summoner basically casts a spell, the aeon comes, does its job, and buggers off. The pros of this is they would be relatively easy to implement and balance, however the cons of this is you've basically got another generic mage class when it comes down to it.

2. Summoners as Blue Mages
In this form which is functionally very similar to the first, a summoner basically could learn how to use the powers of shiva and bahamut and the like as he would learn any other blue magic. So you would get Flare, Diamond Dust, etc as skills (more power longer recast?) that you can equip on your bar. However the drawbacks are the same as the first; you've pretty much got another generic mage.

3. New School Summoners (FF10 and on)
Basically you've got a pet class in this form. You call your beastie out and he comes and kills things at your side. Now this could be rather simple (equip a summon on action bar and use) or it could get rather advanced (it has its own action bar and skill set to manage, maybe its own equipment, AI settings and gambits, etc). The pros of this is you've got an Aeon at your side (but a weak one +con) and we'd have a real pet class in the game.

The cons of this is the summoner would be tough to balance. Do we have a weak Aeon? Do we only allow it to come out for a limited amount of time? How do we make it so it isn't OP compared to other classes? Can other classes have these pets too to make it fair? If we have pets, why not let us have Path Companions while we are running around too? What happens if we have both a summon and a companion with us ATM?

4. Transforming summoners
Has anyone else played shadow hearts? If not, in the first two games, the main character could take the form of a monster of some sort. So if they did this in FF14, you wouldn't call a summoned monster, you'd just transform into one instead. And it would have its own skill bar (customizable I hope). The pros are it'd be kinda unique, the cons are it'd probably end up as another group of classes for the devs to try and balance.


Then there's the possibility of a hybrid system of some sort. Like you could equip 2 shivas on your bar, one as an old school summon or blue magic which has a lot of power in one attack, and the other as a pet (I'd probably favor this system). And maybe for something like bahamut, he'd only be available as an old school summon (but if he doesn't do enough damage, takes to long to recast, or some foes dodge/avoid his damage, people are going to be pissed).

[SuzakuCMX]

What happened to #4?

Also, hybrid of 5 and 1.

[AceofRains]

I have an idea on summoner.
-Like your new school idea but...
-Each summon is comparative to a different class/job
-Summoner does not require any perpetuation cost but cannot take any other actions then giving commands to his summon.
-Fast(er) summoning (than XI)
-the summon's mp is directly linked to yours, while there is no perpetuation cost, when they use mp, you use mp.
-there is an initial casting cost.
-you can not be in passive mode as long as your summoning
-If you enter passive mode, your summon will de-spawn after 10 seconds (maybe less or more depending how much people could abuse the system)
-Equip your learned (con or thau idk what unlock smn) abilites to your summon, but its limited by element and certain abilities fitting to the summon. but the summon also does learn its own attacks.
Its kinda like you become the summon, but your in control from your character's perspective, you know what i mean?
I may post my own thread about this, cuz i like this idea, and well its kinda the best of all situations for an MMO summoner imo.

[Kallera]

There also what to summon. The people of ffxiv aren't exactly worshippers of the eikons, its not certain if there's a way to become one. Instead of starting with the primals themselves, summoners could start with invoking the abilities/form/pet of lesser spirits, setting up a hierarchy of summons that may either involve the primal or become useful based on situation.(A ranged summon, a tank summon, a magic damage summon etc.)

[SuzakuCMX]

There also what to summon. The people of ffxiv aren't exactly worshippers of the eikons, its not certain if there's a way to become one. Instead of starting with the primals themselves, summoners could start with invoking the abilities/form/pet of lesser spirits, setting up a hierarchy of summons that may either involve the primal or become useful based on situation.(A ranged summon, a tank summon, a magic damage summon etc.)

Ifrit told us we have the ability to summon primals, and then your path companion is all "whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat" and then Ifrit is all "DON'T SUMMON OTHER PRIMALS, PROMISE ME OR I WILL BURN YOU RIGHT NOW."

[Kallera]

Ifrit told us we have the ability to summon primals, and then your path companion is all "whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat" and then Ifrit is all "DON'T SUMMON OTHER PRIMALS, PROMISE ME OR I WILL BURN YOU RIGHT NOW."

Ifrit better have his sadface and puppy dog eyes ready.

[Shneibel]

about the #3, the problem with balanced those kind of summoner only come down to when the game is pve & pvp, but with FFXIV being a pve rpg game, the summon can be strong and summoner can be useless piece of crap and this will not hurt any body.

In pvp term with summoner at #3, as nowadays the summon is completely useless in dealing dmg (its dmg can be ignore by everyone and therefore useless in pve as well), the dev had tweak em down to being assit and the summoner will have their own roles as CC master

[AreeyaJaidee]

Obviously I am all about #3.

Even though a few people keep preaching that it would be a hard balancing issue I couldn't disagree more.

My reason for picking #3:
Mainly: I like/love petjobs! They are very tactical and provide very nice gameplay mechanics, helping to kill off some of the tank n spank mentality that most MMO players are heavily grounded in.

Also: I believe that SMN as a petjob gives the Primals themself a lot more interesting utility rather than just having them as a single cast spell or a storyline mechanic. SE can gain a lot from allowing players to interact with summons in this manner. They could make the summons AI very diverse and increase the type of interaction that the summon itself adds to a party/group based battle environment.

[Winterclaw]

What happened to #4?

4 is there... I was pressed for time and was going to make the hybrids 5, but screwed up the numbering.


While I can see the appeal of making summons pets, I'm not sure I'd like to see weak summons. Or summons that eat up all your MP in 30 seconds. Or summons that say for a minute and then go away for 15. That's why I'd like to see a hybrid of 2 & 3 or 1 & 3. Don't forget that summons have to be balanced against other classes, so if squenix goes 3, the summons we are getting are diet coke of summoning; not quite summons enough.

Remember, in the new school systems, these summons replaced an entire party. So we aren't going to get 3 like we saw in the console games, and I'm not fond of that.

[Winterclaw]

about the #3, the problem with balanced those kind of summoner only come down to when the game is pve & pvp, but with FFXIV being a pve rpg game, the summon can be strong and summoner can be useless piece of crap and this will not hurt any body.

Did you see any of the QQing over the recent class nerfs? There will be balance issues.