3.0 & Weapons / Armor.

[Xatsh]

Basically what people liked in FFXI was vertical progression that offered very very small upgrades.

XIV released incremental increases yes. Gear in XI got negated but it took on average 6+yrs for content to be rendered irrelevant. (aka content lasted 3 whole expansions as relevant endgame)


Pure horizontal content is as bad as pure vertical that I will agree with, there has to be a drive to do the content. Which is why almost no one did savage mode in XIV... there was no reward.

What people liked in XI was the fact there was little content negation. Like you said people could still wear gear from 6yr content. IN sky there was still a few BIS armor pieces 4expansions later.

But sea content was also BIS, Dynamis gear was BIS, Limbus gear was BIS, Salvage gear was BIS, HNM gear was BIS, ZNM gear was BIS, Crafted gear was BIS, BCNM/KSNM gear was BIS <= all at the same time.

This allowed XI's content to build on itself. IT was more then 2 dungeons, 1 primal and 1 raid at endgame. It was 100+ instance boss fights, 10 2-3hr long 20+man raids, over 200 open world boss fights, 30ish 30min-1hr raids, 3 sets of tiered open world force spawns (sea, sky, znm). And every single one of these improved your character some how... nothing was vanity only. It is not an exaggeration to say XI pre-abysea had over 25,000hrs of endgame content if you were a guild, you literally could run guild events 80hrs a week and not even be able to do all the endgame that was available before the resets happened.

Yes XIV is new and obviously above is after about 6yrs of development. But the way XIV is being developed it will follow WoW's path which means only a small fraction of the game <10% will be relevant once you are at true endgame. Currently at endgame XIV has the following content. Shiva (Takes 2 weeks to get all the gear tops) and Coil 10-11-12-13 <= THIS IS IT. That is the problem with XIV's model. Once you are at the top you are out of things to do. Once you can clear coil you can finish everything XIV has to offer in 8hrs then you have to wait until Tuesday to honestly play again (so 8hrs vs 80hrs).

[Kiara]

XIV released incremental increases yes. Gear in XI got negated but it took on average 6+yrs for content to be rendered irrelevant. (aka content lasted 3 whole expansions as relevant endgame)...

What people liked in XI was the fact there was little content negation. Like you said people could still wear gear from 6yr content. IN sky there was still a few BIS armor pieces 4expansions later.

But sea content was also BIS, Dynamis gear was BIS, Limbus gear was BIS, Salvage gear was BIS, HNM gear was BIS, ZNM gear was BIS, Crafted gear was BIS, BCNM/KSNM gear was BIS <= all at the same time.

This allowed XI's content to build on itself. IT was more then 2 dungeons, 1 primal and 1 raid at endgame. It was 100+ instance boss fights, 10 2-3hr long 20+man raids, over 200 open world boss fights, 30ish 30min-1hr raids, 3 sets of tiered open world force spawns (sea, sky, znm). And every single one of these improved your character some how... nothing was vanity only. It is not an exaggeration to say XI pre-abysea had over 25,000hrs of endgame content if you were a guild, you literally could run guild events 80hrs a week and not even be able to do all the endgame that was available before the resets happened.

Yes XIV is new and obviously above is after about 6yrs of development. But the way XIV is being developed it will follow WoW's path which means only a small fraction of the game <10% will be relevant once you are at true endgame. Currently at endgame XIV has the following content. Shiva (Takes 2 weeks to get all the gear tops) and Coil 10-11-12-13 <= THIS IS IT. That is the problem with XIV's model. Once you are at the top you are out of things to do. Once you can clear coil you can finish everything XIV has to offer in 8hrs then you have to wait until Tuesday to honestly play again (so 8hrs vs 80hrs).

Totally agree Xatsh. Well said.

This is the problem with XIV's model right now. You have a tiny amount of "end game" per week and NOTHING else for end game raiders. More variety and venues for players to challenge every week is a good thing.

I hope we get Horizontal Progression in 3.0. Yoshi P make it happen, please.

[Zumi]

Totally agree Xatsh. Well said.

This is the problem with XIV's model right now. You have a tiny amount of "end game" per week and NOTHING else for end game raiders. More variety and venues for players to challenge every week is a good thing.

I hope we get Horizontal Progression in 3.0. Yoshi P make it happen, please.

Besides doing coil, I find myself with not enough time to do everything the game has to offer, getting all crafts to 4 star takes a crazy amount of time, doing gardening. Actually I didn't like about FFXI is doing sky 5 years after it was out because it still dropped some of the best items. To me its fine only doing the newest raid doesn't force you do to a bunch of boring content you done 100 or more times. Since FFXIV follow the wow system of 1 top tier raid that works just fine for me. I still don't have enough time for all the crafts gardening ect.

I just don't see SE drastically changing the way the game works to be more like FFXI. How would they let people get more gear because this game has no gear swaps.

[Nalien]

How would they let people get more gear because this game has no gear swaps.

You can have multiple gear sets without in-combat gear swaps. Inventory space is the only issue (and the number of Gear Sets we can have I guess), but they could work it so certain stats are required for some content and not for others; PvP already achieves this even without Morale. Accuracy is an utterly worthless stat in PvP, while a certain amount is required in PvE. Do the same thing with Resistance stats and Primals; You "need" a certain amount of Fire Resistance to survive Ifrit. Just slap Primals with a special Materia reward for the aim of making one set of gear which resists all their elements (something like Mog could work of physical resistance stats since I don't think he has an actual element).

[Sapphic]

You can have multiple gear sets without in-combat gear swaps. Inventory space is the only issue (and the number of Gear Sets we can have I guess), but they could work it so certain stats are required for some content and not for others; PvP already achieves this even without Morale. Accuracy is an utterly worthless stat in PvP, while a certain amount is required in PvE. Do the same thing with Resistance stats and Primals; You "need" a certain amount of Fire Resistance to survive Ifrit. Just slap Primals with a special Materia reward for the aim of making one set of gear which resists all their elements (something like Mog could work of physical resistance stats since I don't think he has an actual element).

So you can only do content if you have the time to grind for a set of gear for each content, if you don't have the time you are, by all intents and purposes locked out. Good idea, lets lock out the majority of the playerbase from most of the content and see how long subs stay at the present rate.

Or what about those who play multiple jobs? Raid leader, oh we down a tank today, Sapphic, you have a geared tank, would ya mind? sure, Ive got the ilvl but dont have the exact gear needed as Ive been only able to get the gear for monk, so we can progress. Can you wait a month while I grind the gear so we can run the content tonight?

DF queues would get worse, as atm it is pretty easy to gear up a secondary job, aka tank that some, myself included, like to run content with other jobs. With your idea players would only be able to focus on their main job/role farming all these difference sets for each piece of content.

And you think it's a good idea? lol.

I don't care what FFXI did or didn't do, it is irrelevant, Why do you think players are playing FFXIV and NOT FFXI?

Bad idea is bad.

[Nalien]

So you can only do content if you have the time to grind for a set of gear for each content, if you don't have the time you are, by all intents and purposes locked out. Good idea, lets lock out the majority of the playerbase from most of the content and see how long subs stay at the present rate.

That would only happen if they decided to haphazardly implement it in the worst possible fashion as an afterthought rather than something from the very start. You may as well be complaining that people are locked out of Coil, actually pretty much any endgame event, because they have iLevel requirements.

You have to grind for a set to progress in endgame, that's simply how MMOs work. Having two sets just increases the amount of content to do instead of the current "I farmed Tomestones, now I can do everything" system we have. Currently you do Coil and you're done with gear progression for a week. Having two separate sets for two separate pieces of content simply means you have something else to do, you have two BiSs to build rather than one.

I don't care what FFXI did or didn't do, it is irrelevant, Why do you think players are playing FFXIV and NOT FFXI?

My suggestion (I don't think it's a good one, by the way, it was simply an example) has absolutely nothing to do with Final Fantasy XI. That game handled horizontal progression by giving you minor increases at every turn you could swap in during combat. My suggestion is having a different set for different content; You progress through Primals building your Primal set, you progress through Coil building your raid set, you progress through PvP building your PvP set. Final Fantasy XI gave us horizontal progression by giving you a BiS for virtually every action, I'm simply pointing out that similar horizontal progression could be achieved with a different BiS for different events, and to a degree that's how it already works with regards to PvE/PvP/gathering/crafting, I'm simply suggesting they could do the same to multiple PvE events.

When I said "You "need" a certain amount of Fire Resistance to survive Ifrit.", that was perhaps a bad example. I'm thinking something more along the lines of how PvP currently stands. In PvP Accuracy is basically worthless, so a BiS for PvP is a set with minimal Accuracy, where as your raid set undoubtedly aims for an Accuracy cap. Think a similar thing for Primals with Resistance Stats. Not having the stats doesn't make things impossible, but having them is a significant enough boost to make them a BiS for Primals. Having Accuracy on a PvP set isn't going to ruin your day, but it's still effectively a handicap. Not having Resistance stats for Primals would be a similar handicap.

DF queues would get worse, as atm it is pretty easy to gear up a secondary job, aka tank that some, myself included, like to run content with other jobs. With your idea players would only be able to focus on their main job/role farming all these difference sets for each piece of content.

Currently, you (should) only farm the maximum iLevel for one Job anyway, if you're being efficient... With two forms of PvE progression you could, for example, gear your Paladin for raids and Monk for Primals. Rather than one Job being BiS for all content, you now have two Jobs, one BiS for one piece of content, the other BiS for the other. Given Primals have no weekly lockout you could actually just BiS everything for Primals while maintaining the existing "only one" BiS for raids system we currently have.

[Sapphic]

That would only happen if they decided to haphazardly implement it in the worst possible fashion as an afterthought rather than something from the very start.

Think better way is to make all secondary stats equal in usefullness, then you could build a set based on your playstyle. Eg a heavy crit set, a heavy skill/spell speed set etc Det and Crit weigh too high above the other secondary stats. Making skillspeed affect TP regen also for example so a gearset built around skillspeed and crit would be an alternative.

I remember there was mention of making speeds more desireable/useful in 3.0.

How we do loot in coil, We have our main job and we pick a secondary job that gets priority on repeat drops that the mains already have. Also I buy poetic BiS items for MNK first, then further poetic purchases will be for other jobs. Also BiS is subjective. Pushing turn 13 for example you need accuracy cap for that, for previous turns you dont need as much acc so if you are at that point of pushing you would already have gear to swap around for each turn. Same for content outside of FCoB. Would be a waste using 535 accuracy gear in experts for example

If you want to optimise for all content, horizontel progression is already there.

Speaking of armor in 3.0 they should add a back slot, for like capes and mantels, they don't have to be visible but it be fun to have another piece of gear. Back armor was in FFXI.

We had changeable (and statted) underclothes in 1.0 ^_^