3.0 & Weapons / Armor.

[QiLymePye]

Can someone tell me what the difference is between horizontal and vertical progression?

[Deathscythe343]

Can someone tell me what the difference is between horizontal and vertical progression?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02...l-progression/

Try reading this.

[Zumi]

Can someone tell me what the difference is between horizontal and vertical progression?

First of all horizontal progression is an oxymoron. It doesn't exist. But its what people call what they did in FFXI. In FFXI they released a ton of gear sets over time from various different events, and because of the way FFXI worked you could swap gear at any time, so you could swap in a bunch of haste gear when you were trying to get tp then you could swap in a bunch of str for your weapon skill, if you had to cast like utsusemi you swap in your fast cast gear, using berserk swap to your enhance berserk gear, using warcry swap to warcry gear ect . FFXI often would release gear from a new event they had a cap on how good the stats could be and often there would be so many pieces of gear that were worthless because gear you could get form sky from 5 years ago was still better. Then SE comes along and releases something that is about 1% better then what currently is available but puts it behind a huge grind, for example salvage, this is in fact vertical progression because its like very slightly better, and not all the pieces of gear are better.

If you didn't care about that 1% better dps you could get then you could just ignore the content and still use your 7 year old gear.

Basically what people liked in FFXI was vertical progression that offered very very small upgrades.

[Xatsh]

Basically what people liked in FFXI was vertical progression that offered very very small upgrades.

XIV released incremental increases yes. Gear in XI got negated but it took on average 6+yrs for content to be rendered irrelevant. (aka content lasted 3 whole expansions as relevant endgame)


Pure horizontal content is as bad as pure vertical that I will agree with, there has to be a drive to do the content. Which is why almost no one did savage mode in XIV... there was no reward.

What people liked in XI was the fact there was little content negation. Like you said people could still wear gear from 6yr content. IN sky there was still a few BIS armor pieces 4expansions later.

But sea content was also BIS, Dynamis gear was BIS, Limbus gear was BIS, Salvage gear was BIS, HNM gear was BIS, ZNM gear was BIS, Crafted gear was BIS, BCNM/KSNM gear was BIS <= all at the same time.

This allowed XI's content to build on itself. IT was more then 2 dungeons, 1 primal and 1 raid at endgame. It was 100+ instance boss fights, 10 2-3hr long 20+man raids, over 200 open world boss fights, 30ish 30min-1hr raids, 3 sets of tiered open world force spawns (sea, sky, znm). And every single one of these improved your character some how... nothing was vanity only. It is not an exaggeration to say XI pre-abysea had over 25,000hrs of endgame content if you were a guild, you literally could run guild events 80hrs a week and not even be able to do all the endgame that was available before the resets happened.

Yes XIV is new and obviously above is after about 6yrs of development. But the way XIV is being developed it will follow WoW's path which means only a small fraction of the game <10% will be relevant once you are at true endgame. Currently at endgame XIV has the following content. Shiva (Takes 2 weeks to get all the gear tops) and Coil 10-11-12-13 <= THIS IS IT. That is the problem with XIV's model. Once you are at the top you are out of things to do. Once you can clear coil you can finish everything XIV has to offer in 8hrs then you have to wait until Tuesday to honestly play again (so 8hrs vs 80hrs).

[Kiara]

XIV released incremental increases yes. Gear in XI got negated but it took on average 6+yrs for content to be rendered irrelevant. (aka content lasted 3 whole expansions as relevant endgame)...

What people liked in XI was the fact there was little content negation. Like you said people could still wear gear from 6yr content. IN sky there was still a few BIS armor pieces 4expansions later.

But sea content was also BIS, Dynamis gear was BIS, Limbus gear was BIS, Salvage gear was BIS, HNM gear was BIS, ZNM gear was BIS, Crafted gear was BIS, BCNM/KSNM gear was BIS <= all at the same time.

This allowed XI's content to build on itself. IT was more then 2 dungeons, 1 primal and 1 raid at endgame. It was 100+ instance boss fights, 10 2-3hr long 20+man raids, over 200 open world boss fights, 30ish 30min-1hr raids, 3 sets of tiered open world force spawns (sea, sky, znm). And every single one of these improved your character some how... nothing was vanity only. It is not an exaggeration to say XI pre-abysea had over 25,000hrs of endgame content if you were a guild, you literally could run guild events 80hrs a week and not even be able to do all the endgame that was available before the resets happened.

Yes XIV is new and obviously above is after about 6yrs of development. But the way XIV is being developed it will follow WoW's path which means only a small fraction of the game <10% will be relevant once you are at true endgame. Currently at endgame XIV has the following content. Shiva (Takes 2 weeks to get all the gear tops) and Coil 10-11-12-13 <= THIS IS IT. That is the problem with XIV's model. Once you are at the top you are out of things to do. Once you can clear coil you can finish everything XIV has to offer in 8hrs then you have to wait until Tuesday to honestly play again (so 8hrs vs 80hrs).

Totally agree Xatsh. Well said.

This is the problem with XIV's model right now. You have a tiny amount of "end game" per week and NOTHING else for end game raiders. More variety and venues for players to challenge every week is a good thing.

I hope we get Horizontal Progression in 3.0. Yoshi P make it happen, please.

[Zumi]

Totally agree Xatsh. Well said.

This is the problem with XIV's model right now. You have a tiny amount of "end game" per week and NOTHING else for end game raiders. More variety and venues for players to challenge every week is a good thing.

I hope we get Horizontal Progression in 3.0. Yoshi P make it happen, please.

Besides doing coil, I find myself with not enough time to do everything the game has to offer, getting all crafts to 4 star takes a crazy amount of time, doing gardening. Actually I didn't like about FFXI is doing sky 5 years after it was out because it still dropped some of the best items. To me its fine only doing the newest raid doesn't force you do to a bunch of boring content you done 100 or more times. Since FFXIV follow the wow system of 1 top tier raid that works just fine for me. I still don't have enough time for all the crafts gardening ect.

I just don't see SE drastically changing the way the game works to be more like FFXI. How would they let people get more gear because this game has no gear swaps.

[Nalien]

How would they let people get more gear because this game has no gear swaps.

You can have multiple gear sets without in-combat gear swaps. Inventory space is the only issue (and the number of Gear Sets we can have I guess), but they could work it so certain stats are required for some content and not for others; PvP already achieves this even without Morale. Accuracy is an utterly worthless stat in PvP, while a certain amount is required in PvE. Do the same thing with Resistance stats and Primals; You "need" a certain amount of Fire Resistance to survive Ifrit. Just slap Primals with a special Materia reward for the aim of making one set of gear which resists all their elements (something like Mog could work of physical resistance stats since I don't think he has an actual element).

[Sapphic]

You can have multiple gear sets without in-combat gear swaps. Inventory space is the only issue (and the number of Gear Sets we can have I guess), but they could work it so certain stats are required for some content and not for others; PvP already achieves this even without Morale. Accuracy is an utterly worthless stat in PvP, while a certain amount is required in PvE. Do the same thing with Resistance stats and Primals; You "need" a certain amount of Fire Resistance to survive Ifrit. Just slap Primals with a special Materia reward for the aim of making one set of gear which resists all their elements (something like Mog could work of physical resistance stats since I don't think he has an actual element).

So you can only do content if you have the time to grind for a set of gear for each content, if you don't have the time you are, by all intents and purposes locked out. Good idea, lets lock out the majority of the playerbase from most of the content and see how long subs stay at the present rate.

Or what about those who play multiple jobs? Raid leader, oh we down a tank today, Sapphic, you have a geared tank, would ya mind? sure, Ive got the ilvl but dont have the exact gear needed as Ive been only able to get the gear for monk, so we can progress. Can you wait a month while I grind the gear so we can run the content tonight?

DF queues would get worse, as atm it is pretty easy to gear up a secondary job, aka tank that some, myself included, like to run content with other jobs. With your idea players would only be able to focus on their main job/role farming all these difference sets for each piece of content.

And you think it's a good idea? lol.

I don't care what FFXI did or didn't do, it is irrelevant, Why do you think players are playing FFXIV and NOT FFXI?

Bad idea is bad.

[Nicobo]

First of all horizontal progression is an oxymoron. It doesn't exist.....

I can't agree more, really glad that someone willing to pointout the fact.


Btw, If someone wants "horizontal progression", why not give it a wider view?
In ARR, players grow their characters not limited to single job or a piece of weapon (ie. relic),
there are multi-classes, achievements, crafting log, gathering log, fishing record, honor, housing, pvp rank, 3GC, chocobo, mog delivery, beastman relationships, complete every leve, complete every quest...etc
all of above progress simultaneously and the progression is accumulated forever. ^^;

[Ultimatecalibur]

First of all horizontal progression is an oxymoron. It doesn't exist.

I agree with everything in your post but this. Horizontal progression occurs when your ability to complete some content improves without automatically improving your ability to complete other content and basically increases the "width" of content you can access.

Currently we do have some slight Horizontal progression gear wise. There are two major bits of content with completely different gear needs Coil and PvP. BiS in one is not BiS in the other.

We kind of need more content with different gear needs in order to have true "horizontal progression."