We have finally come full circle, SMN's need help!

[polyhedral]

There's too much work for smn to play being in the low dps brackets, compared to blm which is EASY AS S*** to play.

[Wizarus]

It all goes back to Ruin. You only use it when you have nothing else to do, which is a little too often, and cost too much mana for what it does. And yet you have to use it to maintain DPS. Alot of SMN problems would be fixed by giving SMN Thunder back while reducing Ruin Mana cost.

[Odowla]

Also, here's a bit of work on the MP problem that a lot of poeple are saying there ISNT.

Base DoT Rotation + Durations:
159/30s + 133/24s + 106/18s + 212/30s + 186/60s (miasma 2 + contagion)

So the BASE rotation, without counting Miasma 2, is 610 MP - which is, on my character without SCH piety bonus, 20.3% of my total mp. FOR ONE ROTATION OF DOTS.

Now since Aetherflow exists, lets put this into a rotation fitting in with the CD of Aetherflow, and counting Contagion.

(159 x 2) + (133 x 2) + (106 x 3) + (212 x 2) + 186. Bio 2 Twice per minute, 40 second duration with Contagion (or so). Miasma 2 Twice per minute with contagion, 39 second max duration with contagion. Bio I 3 times per minute, 33 seconds max + 2 more casts per minute. Shadow Flare Twice per minute, 30 second duration.

Total MP Per minute = 1512 MP. or, 50.4% of Max MP per minute, when Contagion is used.

When Contagion ISNT used, the rotation looks like this.

159 x 2 + 133 x 3 + 106 x 3 + 212 x 2 for 1459 MP, or 48.6% of total MP per minute without Contagion.

Technically, the DPS increase from Contagion that you see is you spend 7.5 second less per minute casting dots, and you get increased Raging Strikes dots. You also gain 3 ruins due to that 7.5 seconds less of dot casting, so lets factor THAT in now, onto the Contagion rotation.

1512 MP + (79x3) = 1749 MP. So you spend 237 more MP per rotation when Contagion is used, every time it is used. (since 3 less dots recast = 3 more ruins) 1749 = 58.3% of max MP per rotation.

I havent factored in Aetherflow MP generation yet, so I'll do that now.
Aetherflow = 20% Max MP per minute

Making Contagion Rotations have 38.3% of max MP per minute, non-contagion rotations having 28.6% max MP per rotation.

Again, remember that this isnt including total ruin casts per minute.

In the Contagion rotation, you spend 3 more GCD's casting Ruins over casting dots, that's already been factored in.
On the normal rotation, you spend 14 GCD's casting Ruins(Math Below), so on a Contagion rotation that's 17.

Ruin casts = (60s - time spent casting dots /2.5)

60s / 2.5 s = 24 gcds/minute

10 gcds on DoTs without contagion - 24 gcd's/minute = 14 gcd's casting ruin
MP cost of 14 ruins = 79 x 14 = 1106 MP/Minute or 1343 with contagion
1106 MP per minute is 36.8% of max MP / minute without contagion, on a non-contagion rotation you get 84.4% of max MP per minute, or 64.4% with Aetherflow.

Now to count 2% MP regen/3 seconds in combat + aetherflow for total MP drain per minute without contagion

1459 + 1106 = 2565 MP/Minute

Aetherflow on Miqote Sunseeker = 20% of 2998 = 599MP restored
+ 2% of 2998 = 59 mp / 3 seconds = 1199 MP from Natural Regen

= 599 + 1199 = 1798 MP / minute

2565 - 1798 = 867 MP per Minute or 28% of total MP per minute spent.

This doesnt even count Ruin 2, of which you get AT LEAST 4 per minute, sometimes more. which is more than twice the cost of a ruin 2, x4 or x5, depending. So yeah, dat MP loss. this also doesnt count multidotting, of which there is TONS in FCoB.

[Atomnium]

2565 - 1798 = 867 MP per Minute or 28% of total MP per minute spent.

This doesnt even count Ruin 2, of which you get AT LEAST 4 per minute, sometimes more. which is more than twice the cost of a ruin 2, x4 or x5, depending. So yeah, dat MP loss. this also doesnt count multidotting, of which there is TONS in FCoB.

Thanks for the maths and your share Odowla as for the ruins II during turn 13, like you said it will vary a lot depending of RNG, during mega-flares it will be like 1-2 and during earthshockers 3 (if you are the target, of course)... those drain a lot of mps if you decide to not make any DPS sacrifices, ballad is then needed during divebombs (which not last long :x).

As main SMN since 2.0, I never had to encounter such frustrations during fights, especially turn 12 and 13, I just shouldn't ask myself at all if it is a wise idea to reapply the next shadow flare because of bad design or the RNG god wanted to strike.... Of course it should be there! Just like the ruin II during mandatory movements X.X /huge-disappointment.

[Odowla]

Thanks for the maths and your share Odowla as for the ruins II during turn 13, like you said it will vary a lot depending of RNG, during mega-flares it will be like 1-2 and during earthshockers 3 (if you are the target, of course)... those drain a lot of mps if you decide to not make any DPS sacrifices, ballad is then needed during divebombs (which not last long :x).

That Also doesnt count Ruin 2 Spam during Raging Strikes for Autoattacks. Add 5 more for that, etc.. SMN MP really is a problem, people really need to stop defending it.
For comparison to MNK/DRG, they get the 1200 TP per 60 seconds (600 tp per 30 seconds, x2) plus they get 40% invigorate (400/1000 = 40%), they really only deplete quickly because of things like Huton, Phlebotomize that drains their TP faster than it regens, as well as 2.5 second or less gcds and TP ticks coming once every 3.

[Xisin]

This is why its a "Circle". It will be there no matter what you do, the best way is to keep the circle moving by buffing and nerfing classes appropriately.

Every single comment you have made in this thread has been extremely ignorant and counter-productive to the discussion.

Her point is fairly valid. With the "circle" model then someone is always going to be left high and dry in a certain patch. It is fairly unavoidable and by that nature broken in its own right. She is arguing for the bigger picture like I am essentially. For the case of casters though this circle is much smaller and in fact, binary, its either bringing a smn OR bringing a blm otherwise its not optimal for dps. I say this full well knowing the capabilities of each class, I have a dreadwyrm staff for my little blm (my alt) but my main blm hasn't had the luxury of one dropping yet... I've cleared t13 multiple times now.

With how little selection this game already has it's not impossible to ask for a more fair selection for dps. Bringing casters in line with melee would help with this, either that or make it so bard just isn't autoslotted, or hell make it so paeon isn't worth a ton more than foe or ballad. (having foe buff a bards dps AND ONLY the bards dps + the casters would go a long way in this imo.)

Difficulty is not a valid argument to balance, sorry it's not if that were the case then champions such as shaco in league would be good at all times, that isn't the case. Staying on the case of league I present Urgot (deep but horrible) and pre re-work Karma (lots of options, all bad options.) and characters such as ice climbers would be be the best in melee/brawl... also not the case. (though a good IC is terrifying) Balance is simply ensuring that the game has as much meaningful selection in party make up as it can be.

I can't really say much more without repating myself over and over so for those who don't read the thread entirely.

- difficulty of class is a hogwash argument, all jobs in this game are about on the same relative spectrum of difficulty anyway, some fights are more lenient than others on certain jobs, and this happens to every job.

- I agree smns have mp issues, I've even proposed what might fix it.

- I stand that jobs need to have specific identities and rather than buffing smns potency, a buff to utility should be in order.

- infinite mp on smn without dps sacrifice is something I'm fine with, mind you blm pays for their infinite mp pool with the nature of fire/ice modes. Fire is roughly 700 dps while ice is roughly 200 dps. Both casters have a slowish ramp up compared to their physical counterparts

- I play both smn and blm, I do really good dps on both too... I know both jobs, promise. (edit- after re reading this statement allow me to clarify. I mean good dps for both jobs, rather than saying I"m equal dps on both as it stands blm does in fact do more dps atm, no arguing that one. However, I think that blm SHOULD do more dps than smn, so this to me is no issue. Smns however need to be more useful than what they are.)

[Odowla]

a buff to utility should be in order.
and
Smns however need to be more useful than what they are.)

Yep, that's their problem, okish damage for a short period of time, with no other real reason to bring them - their utility just isnt as strong as it needs to be in order to be worth gimping the party's DPs to bring - and i'm NOT just talking about ballad, I'm talking you can bring a BLM for the same effect of a SMN, without mana problems AND more damage.

So if SMN is supposed to do less damage.. sure, let them do less damage, but make Eye 4 an Eye SUPER potent or something, make the utility traits they get SUPER Strong, so that bringing a SCH and a SMN is like "hey, we break this fight, gg wp" - much like a MNK does for magic damage.

[Miotoss]

Most summoners I know have quit the game, or switched to BLM or Ninja. Almost every end game progression grp on my server no longer wants or takes summoners.

That alone tells you all you need to know about the class. Its the least played, its one of the hardest to play with the least pay off atm.

Honestly Square is pretty bad at making good design choices and most the time when called on it they say we dont know how to play.

Im currently on turn 13 and every day me and my grp talk about how much better it would be if I was a monk or drg.

I dont post often, but Im honestly at a breaking point in the game. How much can you ignore a class?

[lxChrisxl]

if you want anything to change get the dragoons to complain about it

[lxChrisxl]

Most summoners I know have quit the game, or switched to BLM or Ninja. Almost every end game progression grp on my server no longer wants or takes summoners.

That alone tells you all you need to know about the class. Its the least played, its one of the hardest to play with the least pay off atm.

Honestly Square is pretty bad at making good design choices and most the time when called on it they say we dont know how to play.

Im currently on turn 13 and every day me and my grp talk about how much better it would be if I was a monk or drg.

I dont post often, but Im honestly at a breaking point in the game. How much can you ignore a class?

how could they tell anybody they didn't know how to play? they admitted they sucked at playing ninja.