Discuss: Are DPS meters bad for MMOs?

[Metabug]

DPS meter in my opinion are a bad thing it lead to horrific tunnel visioning in fights and people who are OMFG my dps is better then your dps /kick /kick /kick. but the true issue is the game is built around dps checks.

Almost everything at endgame requires X group dps or the boss does some move that 1 shots everyone. In my opinion it is horrible design, it is SE's way or locking content out for certain gear scores, but it is just bad in my opinion.

Which I think it is nuts that SE will not give us a dps meter or technically allow one to be used when the game is based around high dps. They are sorta a requirement for endgame raiding.

Either DPS check or HP check. Choose your poison. In case of HP check you'll need to add Time check, just so that people won't be kiting boss for an hour. Which results in... DPS check.

[NaoKith]

not having dps meters is like being on a track team without stop watches

And yet anyone involved in the pole vault, long jump, high jump or shot put would still argue that stop watches are not necessary.

That's a poor argument, all of those other events still have a metric by which they are able to measure performance.

You don't pole vault or long jump and just walk away without knowing of or measuring your results, at least not at any team oriented event where performance actually matters, so yeah I'm not exactly sure where you're trying to go with that one.

Pell's analogy clearely stated that DPS meters might be the wrong tool for measurement of success in some activities. It is far from a complete representation of people's playing skill.

I personally think that DPS meters offer great insight, as long as they are analysed within the context of their respective encounter. Going back to the wacky racing analogy, would you be impressed by a runner's track times if he was at a children's three-legged race?

[jars]

And yet anyone involved in the pole vault, long jump, high jump or shot put would still argue that stop watches are not necessary.

that would be a track and field team. track is only running, field events are separate and frequently not included. kind of like how raiding and crafting are separate.

Except not everyone sees this game as a competitive race.

you must not have done a solo sport. your biggest competitor is yourself, not other people.

[Kyros]

Players looking into "What's going wrong" on their party will do so without the Parser. The Parser only brings precision. Too often has my parser proven me wrong (IE: I thought it was the BLM slacking when it was the BRD, etc).

Also, without Parsers we wouldn't be able to accurately build a ton of the formulas, like Parry/Block/Crit formulas and stat weights, and players would be much more in the blind about which stat is better. Keep in mind this wouldn't stop players from berating X for liking Y stat, but it again adds precision.

[Xatsh]

Either DPS check or HP check. Choose your poison. In case of HP check you'll need to add Time check, just so that people won't be kiting boss for an hour. Which results in... DPS check.

I prefer the HP check without a time limit honestly.

So what if a group find a kite strategy that takes 2-3hrs to kill good for them. The penalty for doing so is it is taking 3hrs to kill it instead of 15mins.

[Hiruke]

I prefer the HP check without a time limit honestly.

So what if a group find a kite strategy that takes 2-3hrs to kill good for them. The penalty for doing so is it is taking 3hrs to kill it instead of 15mins.

Actual humans won't put up with this, and we shouldn't design around this. They will leave your instance, so the actual penalty is never clearing it ever. That happens already, actually, so why change the system? It may be sad for people that not every MMO is only about participation trophies, but certainly there are games out there they may enjoy more. I imagine there must be some super casual MMOs where you win without trying. Or they could play non-combat MMOs:

http://www.wanderthegame.com/

I hate this topic. It was intended as a troll topic on Massively, and will inevitably be nothing but a troll topic here. People's arguments against parsers is that "omg they're bad" when really the problem is they are playing a game where you're intended to excel and they think it's ok to push 130 dps as MNK in iLVL110+ gear in Ramuh EX. "Why am I not winning guys!?" I understand a lot of people think "it's just a game, why should I play well? I should just be able to huck it in there and win!" but you need to find a game that's catered to this, not expect games meant to played skillfully to.. not be that. I don't go to the World Series of Poker and cry that I lost because apparently drawing a fresh hand at every opportunity isn't usually a winning strategy. I should win just for participating!

The problem isn't people going "omg this SMN is 30 dps below me, kick him!" it's "omg this SMN is doing 100 dps when a SMN of average skill should be doing 300 dps in this fight - the WAR is outdpsing 2-3 of our dps!!!!!" which is clearly a case of those dps play so horribly bad that you won't win anything ever, so just give up now. That's not a problem with parsers, that's a problem with the underperforming dps. They are afflicted with at least one of the following:

1) Poor gear
2) Poorly optimized gear
3) Poor attitude
4) No motivation
5) Not enough skill
6) Not enough resources to clue them in that they're doing poorly
7) etc. etc.

[Defias]

I find them to be bad for MMOs.
Parsers were one of many reasons I became a Solo Player.
They are also why I push for solo modes of Dungeons, Trials (Storymode says we soloed them!), and Raids.

Everything in life is good with moderation.
Yes "Parsers" are good forms of measurement and can lead to self improvement. However Parsers tend to be used to primarily for wrong & showing off the "epeen".

WOW became an ugly place with parsers.
The only mod that was worse was gearscore. It was a good way to tell if you were not at the minimum ilvl for content.
But it became a player crated Gate. Much like Achievement linking.
Players chose scores that were significantly over the true score in order to speed run/guarantee a win with no challenge presented at all.

That said...despite the few who use it for good a Parser would be Cancer for this game.
Its bad enough ilvl 90 players get kicked from Dungeons because they are "up to date" in gear.
Adding in a Parser would create another ridiculous hurdle to leap.

Bringing WOW up again. For folks who played it...I ask this...
Think back to when a parser got posted after a fight, preferably before a Boss fight.
Now...
Did your dps choose to follow mechanics or did they just eat every damn mechanic in sight because following the script would break their rotation & lower their overall dps score for the fight?

The above would happen religiously in WOW. DPS felt it was the Healers job to heal them through the damage so they could sit pretty and mash their rotations.
In the end this was furthered by Gearscore.
A Healer who was overgeared COULD Heal the team ignoring whatever mechanic was causing them damage.

FFXIV is not as forgiving as WOW mechanic wise, failed mechanics often end in death period.
FFXIV's community also could not handle parsers, I mean as a whole. Yes some folks can be mature about it but the end the many ruin it for the few.
Folks would now see a player's dps and then Abandon Duty or /kick folks because they will not be able to speed run or easily beat every single boss.

Adding even more to DPS queues.
In the end, just like in WOW, New players would lose.
The learning curve would reach "Unforgiving" standards.

Back in my WOW days I found myself wondering how do I get the right GS (Gearscore) for ___ dungeon.
The answer was to run the dungeon. (The player community's GS was set too high)
However I would be kicked on sight for not having the GS if I ran it legitimately.
So I hit a dead end.
I could have done what others did and just wear gear that would increase my GS even if it was not appropriate for my class.

Soon WOW added average ilvl to dungeons/dungeon finder in hopes of showing how flawed GS was.
It made no difference.

Then the tough dungeons required an Completion Achievement link in order to get invited or to avoid a /kick.
If you had never run the content you got kicked.
Folks had to get mods that would show completed achievements to fool folks.
The only way to get in so you could run content so you could progress.

Some said "Get Guild to carry you." To most players who found they were appropriately geared but not high enough in GS, and/or did not have the Achievement.
Most Guilds then looked at those players as moochers/scrubs/noobs and would kick them rather than help them.

I bring these points up because FFXIV would go this way overnight.

1. Folks already cry over explaining the boss fights, they LOVE a Tome bonus but resent having to teach/explain.

2. Folks already kicked for being overgeared.
Ex:
I have not stepped foot in a HM dungeon for more than 2 minutes because I get kicked. Why? I do not have my ilvl100 all slots. I was told to "Get good and get ilvl 100 in my slots before queueing up for HMs."
Before 2.4 patch I needed full ilvl 90. So this is just how it is apparently.
I don't dare even look at the HM dungeons until I finish my Solidarity armors for every combat job I have.
I got told off so bad one night for queueing as my ilvl90 Dragoon that I felt like I had killed someone drunk driving.
I digress...

3. DPS would start eating mechanics in this game like candy.
I can't even imagine how crazy fights would get. Hell they had to recently remove positionals from Dragoons in order to keep them "Competitive".
So this already states how movement focused this game is.

That said...
Solo versions of content would fix this. Folks could then solo their gearsets & stay "up to date" easier.
On the flipside, people would use Tools such as Parsers
responsibly, because grouping would become an "Option" and it seems that when it comes to MMOs...
When things are not "forced" people suddenly become more accepting & forgiving of them.
Apparently MMO players need to "lose it, to appreciate it."

tl:dr
Parsers are a Tool.
Everything is life is good in moderation.
Parsers are used for bad more so than good.
The bad ruin it for the good.
This game would NOT benefit from a legit Parser.

[MidlaneGod]

It's good for mmos but bad for sensitive playerbase.

[Elusana_Celah]

Lmfao the pole vault argument made me laugh so hard I'm now forced to write that I laughed. Comparing video games to professional sports. Just stop please.

[Noshpan]

As others have stated, I have no issues with helpful tools such as DPS meters/ parsers (such as Recount & Skada), DBM (Deadly Boss Mods), addons that help you gear better, etc; it's the people that abuse these tools that makes others dislike said tools.

*All mods that I've named are for WoW, they were just provided as examples.