Yoshida did not make this game pay-to-win. The players did. *NOT a cash shop thread*

[Kaes]

I'm talking about the groups who are selling clears for gil, not the cash shop items.

Obviously it's possible for gil to be obtained through approved and unapproved non gameplay methods but there are enough threads about that, let's assume here that all gil involved was generated through fair and legitimate gameplay.

Now, this type of interaction is not considered "pay to win" as defined since no real money changes hands. In fact, requiring trading and interaction between different classes is part of the design of nearly every MMO.

So why did I clickbait the topic thread with "pay to win"? Because in all the debates about cash pay to win, which occasionally mention that you can buy clears, it is rarely mentioned who is selling access to thos content, for in-game currency, 100% ToS compliant and mostly accepted by other players. There are by far more ads being reposted every day in PF selling turns and primals than I have ever seen offering EB bracelets. Titan for sale. Leviathan for sale. Turns 1-9 for sale.

Personally, this doesn't bother me. It's the rumors that some players are having to pay for clears to get rid of the 100 soldiery bonus message that seems ridiculous.

You're a pretty good Dragoon. Got i130 gear, high DPS, the daily roulettes are a piece of cake for you. You try to join a static for FCoB though... the "One or more players are new..." bonus message comes up, and you get votekicked!

But... you've got three star crafters, and RNGesus your guardian Byregot has been looking kindly upon you. You find one unspoiled mining node after another, and successfully meld tier IV materia four times in a row! All you have to do now is pay up some gil, and a carry from BCoB to SCoB all the way through FCoB is all yours.

And finally, that shameful bonus will be gone.

Pay Gil to Win!

Oh... I see the sales of Eternal Bond ceremony invitations have started in earnest today.

[paindax]

Because mention "Real life money" and "In game currency" in the same sentence and people just lose their minds. Fact.

[Nalien]

I'm talking about the groups who are selling clears for gil, not the cash shop items.

Aren't such groups only really around because the developers insisted on a simplistic system for just about everything?

Since beta I've seen hundreds of threads asking for more complexity in class and fight mechanics, and they always get met with the same "That would be too complex for players" style of response. Honestly, when you make a game with very little complexity, it's just begging for people to be carried through it. I think the root of the problem is the developers "Let everyone reach max level really easily" mentality. When you can reach Coil by doing nothing but spamming AoE in FATEs of course you're going to have people who can barely function in endgame content and then look to buy wins...

[warren-ragnarok]

Aren't such groups only really around because the developers insisted on a simplistic system for just about everything?

Since beta I've seen hundreds of threads asking for more complexity in class and fight mechanics, and they always get met with the same "That would be too complex for players" style of response. Honestly, when you make a game with very little complexity, it's just begging for people to be carried through it. I think the root of the problem is the developers "Let everyone reach max level really easily" mentality. When you can reach Coil by doing nothing but spamming AoE in FATEs of course you're going to have people who can barely function in endgame content and then look to buy wins...

sadly, its not just the simplicity, its also the fact most people cannot play the game reliably with their connection/pc for one reason or another (no, i do not intend to discuss this topic at length) and this causes them unable to do certain content normally. part of it is SEs fault for making it very connection based. i also want to take a second to blame the community, very few people are willing to join training parties and help people get past content, and once the content becomes dated, well we all know what that means for newer players.

[Korilynn]

Aren't such groups only really around because the developers insisted on a simplistic system for just about everything?

Since beta I've seen hundreds of threads asking for more complexity in class and fight mechanics, and they always get met with the same "That would be too complex for players" style of response. Honestly, when you make a game with very little complexity, it's just begging for people to be carried through it. I think the root of the problem is the developers "Let everyone reach max level really easily" mentality. When you can reach Coil by doing nothing but spamming AoE in FATEs of course you're going to have people who can barely function in endgame content and then look to buy wins...

The mentality of make things harder and require an awesome static didn't work to well for Wildstar.

Yes, there is a playerbase for that, it's just not that big.

[Nalien]

The mentality of make things harder and require an awesome static didn't work to well for Wildstar.

That's only half the solution. The main issue is the way mechanics are just suddenly dropped on you. They did an OK job with Primals, since the story mode ones introduce the mechanics while the hard/extreme ones just ramp up the difficulty and perhaps add a couple new mechanics, but Crystal Tower and Coil?

Guildhests would have been a great way to teach players mechanics, but they were completely optional and only really worth doing the once. They'd have been a great educational tool if SE actually made them relevant, instead most teach you nothing (or instead tell you to do something stupid like focus on adds when the boss goes down in seconds) and all endgame mechanics end up being taught to new players by old players, which a lot of people just don't have the patience for.

By far the main issue is that the game expects nothing of you until Coil. The fact that all content is simplistic and thus easy to carry people through doesn't help. The game should have steadily taught players how to handle basic mechanics as you level, instead it basically teaches you nothing 1-50 and then ramps up the difficulty for endgame. You go from simply dodging things and killing adds, to mechanics like Allagan Rot which get completely ignored because not a damn thing in the game prepared players for it. A Guildhest could so easily have introduced a mechanic similar to Allagan Rot, make it a requirement (or at least worth doing frequently) and people wouldn't have gotten to Turn 2 and failed time after time to a completely alien mechanic. Christ, Silencing High Voltage was a completely new mechanic to 99% of the games population in 2.0, it was pathetic...

This games biggest failing is the dichotomy of its difficulty. You either have super casual content where you can almost ignore mechanics and still power through, or you have instant KO mechanics. It simply isn't a good system, it means your casual players can have almost no idea what they're doing, while your hardcores have it completely sorted. Don't treat casuals like children and gradually expect more from them as they level (almost all "difficult" leveling content currently can be ignored for FATEs), then when they get to endgame they might actually have a clue what is going on and be able to adapt, or have others explain things simply ("It's like X" rather than having to explain the entire thing like you currently have to). For the most part mechanics aren't even hard in this game, it's just an utter lack of practice, due to an utter lack of any content requiring practice before Coil. Silencing High Voltage is in no way hard, but when people are getting to Coil for the first time and have not once had to Silence anything, let alone coordinate with another player, that is an issue.

[Erudain]

snip turn 2 pass the bomb, turn 1 silence the orb stuff.

You sir, wins the interwebz.

Only thing I would like to add to what you said, is the ammount of wipe mechanics the game has is ridiculous.
It usually punishs everyone for one person mistake, and in the other end it doesn't reward exceptional playskill since you cannot make up for the one who screwed it up.

Someone screws up = wipe.
That also leads to the elitist attitude of not wanting to help.
If you have hard mechanics, but not automatic wipes....you could enable 3, 4, 5 guys to lead a group to victory through amazing playskill even if 2, 3, 4 other guys screwed up and are kissing the floor, those guys would feel great about themselves "look what we just did, awesome!"...and experienced players would be more willing to help.
(note the "amazing" part of the sentence = not a cake walk that "everyone" can clear with 4-5 guys only")

[Bishop81]

...

Well, it will certainly increase the number of players willing to help, but the elitist attitude probably isn't going anywhere.

There will still be prima donnas throwing hissy fits about how "noobs" and "bads" are slowing down the raid, when things don't go exactly as they planned.

The only way to fix this is to ensure players only play with "their own kind. ".

[Terrini]

The problem isn't even always that people can't do the content, it's that they cannot find people willing to even let them even experience it because they've never beaten it before. It's like the job market only looking for people with experience and passing over people with the skills but no experience denying them the chance to even get the experience employers are looking for. Same concept and just as unfair. I'm an ilvl 112 WHM and I can't do static raids because I work shiftwork, so having a set time to meet every week to raid isn't possible for me. And DF and PF both fail so hard to be able to get past Turn 5 because even if they give it a chance, someone bails after 2 wipes, not letting people get any real experience and not getting through.The content needs a close knit group that knows the ins and outs of it to be completed, so for those people that cannot be part of such a group and then random in with players that are looking for things to be easy, and bailing when it's not... It just makes it impossible.

The reason I like this game is because most content is completeable alone or with random groups. The Coils are designed for people looking for a challenge and I accept that, but I really just want to complete it for the story more so than anything, but I don't just want to be "carried". I don't want to give into that paying for carries because I have dreams for my little FC to have a large house and we're making steady progress and are maybe 6million from our goal. Still the player-based economy can be pretty ridiculous.

[Khiry]

Its as Terrini said player greed is the cause,I'll use myself as an example.
I am Stuck on T9 (Had issues before the nerf and even so now 10% echo aint cutting it)I work full time and I am a Full-time College student so I dont always have the time to offer for a Static. I try to make a Progression PF but those can be Hit or miss.
DF is out of the question since everyone likes to ignore mechanics. Shady people try to offer me a carry, which I always decline but they try to charge 5mil Gill or more. Which brings me to my next point.Players who have 5million gil most likely have nothing to do with T9 or carries in general and are doing other things, The"casual" players that they try to market to cant afford such inflated prices and this is where the RMT comes in and try to sell Gil to those players.The Greed of players is what is poisoning the community.