White Mage vs Scholar - Why is White Mage lacking?

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Snip

DreamWeaver explained it, I'd just like to add some more off-topicness:

A lot of scholars use a crit build, while on the other hand crit isn't as popular for White Mages. 20% crit on a White Mage would mean 10% more HP recovered on average. For example: you cast 100 Cures, with 20% crit that means 20 will cure for 50% more: 80 spells for 100% and 20 spells for 150% potency. Effectively this is equal to 10% more HP recovered on average due to crits. For scholars, it's different. With Adloquium you get 300% worth of shielding and 150% worth of healing, rather than just the regular 50% increase. On average this is 225% worth of potency on a crit. With the same numbers, the increased potency from crits is 25% (combined healing/shielding). This makes crit far more valuable for scholars than it is for White Mage.

[DreamWeaver]

Random rambling about critical adlos while we're at it, as a WHM I would love to see a difference in status buff icon for normal adlo and critical adlo, this is mostly due to if both healers are prepping for a huge hit with stoneskin/adlo, a critical adlo can pretty much nullify the damage from the big hit entirely, as a SCH if I see a critical adlo, I won't even bother pre-casting a Physick.

As a WHM however, it's quite difficult to know if it was a critical adlo or not, thus there have been times where I precast my Cure just to heal an amazing 50 points worth of damage, and my scholar friend will go "yep Crit adlo", and I'll think deep down in my heart "You could have told me sooner...".

Random rambling finished

[Kyomih]

Well, we just have to agree to disagree then. I know lustrate is being brought up all the time but you do use it at the cost of something else. And seriously? Does it matter if Medica II is up a second before or after an AoE? Does it matter if SS or Succor is up a second before or after an AoE? This is pretty much the point I am trying to make. I never said that WHM does NOT need to know the fight at all. I am still claiming that the SCHs main tools totally lose their merit if the SCH doesn't know the fight while the WHM can still catch up.

Anyway, I think everyone has some good points in this discussion
To get back to the whole WHM vs SCH debate, what do you think about this?

Steady, bread and butter Healing: Both.
Both jobs have no issues keeping a tank alive. WHM has to be a bit more careful with GDC and spell cast times while the SCH gets the fairy backup. Regen helps but reaction time of the fairy is instant compared to lag issues a WHM might have to deal with. Still no biggie.

Tank and spank: SCH.
WHM is capable, but SCH will put out more HPS with a macro'd fairy. Scholars with a macro'd fairy seem to be better at single target healing using basic spells by about 15% without factoring in CDs; however, I'm inclined to believe that they would still come out ahead their own CDs. This drops down to a 10% bonus during high throughput times, but again - without CDs and highly dependent on fight mechanics.

High Movement: easier for SCH.
The fairy is automated. Regen is fantastic. It's roughly equivalent to the best single target cure bomb, instant cast, and costs less mana. The problem is that you have to be very aware of what's going on. You need to move, target, and cast at all the same time. Scholar on the other hand can move and let their fairy do the work.

Predictable Damage: SCH, but just barely.
Both classes can prep for incoming damage. WHM has stoneskin but Stoneskin is available to SCHs, too even though without the passive boost. The SCH shield costs less and is attached to normal healing spells. So a single SCH can pre-stoneskin before the pull or before a planned hit and throw their own shield up for a higher amount of mitigated damage.

Super Long Fights: The SCH has this one hands-down.
They have several mana efficient heals, 3 free heals for 20% HP each every minute, the fairy provides free heals, their procs are frequent, and Aetherflow accounts for ~1.6% of their total mana every 5 seconds (20% every minute). They also have more free heals, or energy drain for more mana returns. This is a huge benefit. Compare this to a WHM's refresh which gives ~.915% every 5 seconds (~33% every 3 minutes).

Heavy Burst Healing: WHMs outclasses by far
If you have someone dipping low as part of a fight mechanic, movement, or just general slip-up then you're going to want a WHM in your party. They have the highest HPS, and it's much easier to control the healing when they can turret.

Burst AOE damage - selected area: WHM.
No question - more bursty (but very MP intense) tools in the WHMs box.

Burst AOE damage - entire party/raid: WHM.
Better range on WHMs Medica II - Cure 3 is even after the change still somewhat situational

Continuous lower AOE damage - stacked: SCH.
Sacred soil for an immediate 10% bonus, and the fairy's aoe healing for tight groups make SCH the premier stacked healer. If Regen is not enough a WHM is forced to use high MP AoE spells.

Continuous AOE damage - staggered: WHM.
This was too close to call. Both have AOE abilities. The SCH has more mana, and more instants to handle multiple scenarios. The fairy can also help by smart healing the raid.

Rollercoaster fights (intense healing, no/low healing, repeat) WHM.
The WHM is just better suited to respond to intense healing requirements. The scholar is still usable, but they'll burn more mana and GCDs doing it - especially when it comes to AOE.

Low healing required - DPS race: SCH, hands down.
The WHM has more burst damage, but the spells are too mana intensive. SCH can dot up, throw up cleric stance to have the dots do more damage, and then take it back down when it's time to heal. They can also swap to the utility fairy which will boost the skill/spell speed of actual DPS classes.

Emergency - someone screwed up - save the day spells: WHM, without a doubt
With an instant full 100% heal, 30% + healing CD, and they come with the possibility of an instant cure 2 (~40% health) or cure 3. A SCH isn't bad in their own right. They have their own version of (20% health, 3x a minute), but that's it. And it comes at the cost of other abilities such as energy drain or sacred soil. Ones you burned through all three and have to wait for the CD you are a sitting duck compared to the WHM.

Passive utility: Both.
WHM is better for high end content where you don't want to give up healing for protective utility. SCH is better for content where healing is less important, but you'll want to down the boss more quickly. You'll still want both in your group. Whitemage for the protect magic resistance buff (it's just physical when going cross class), and SCH for the heroism/bloodlust fairy.

Farmed fights: SCH.
SCH can put out more damage, provide more utility when incoming damage is less of a concern, and makes for a better hybrid.

Fights with enmity wipes: WHM.
The fairy can pull hate too quickly sometimes. It's not a big issue, but WHMs get Shroud of Saints. Doesn't really matter that much, though.

I'm sure we can quibble on some of the points that may sway this one way or another. This is especially true for specific fights but they're close enough that it really doesn't matter in light parties and in 8x you would want one of both ideally.

So, lets not forget the great buffs the SCH fairies bring to the mix on top of no lag, no mp, constant healing
Not every class needs to be equally good at the same things...and in the end it comes down to the party you are in.

[Cynfael]

Very quick points:

- Yes, precasting matters.
- WHM faces significantly more challenges with enmity than the SCH and the fairy do. Shroud is neat when it's available, but SCHs can usually avoid enmity issues altogether thanks to how their mechanics work. This isn't a criticism of WHM; I actually think it's one of the features of WHM gameplay that keeps the job interesting.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I'm not sure how that wall-of-text contributed at all of what has been posted on the previous 11 pages

[Ghishlain]

@Dreamweaver + Lyrica

Thanks for the responses. It actually dawned upon me this morning while I was getting ready for work that Critting was a 1.5x multiplier which then I face palmed myself for forgetting that, lol.

Either way, thank you for the clarity / math things, I'm a huge theorycraft buff, just hard to keep track of every little detail sometimes.

[Kyomih]

I'm not sure how that wall-of-text contributed at all of what has been posted on the previous 11 pages

Maybe nothing but since this whole discussion about WHM vs SCH has been around since release of the game and because I have been discussing this topic since forever I felt like reposting my thoughts on it. Fair enough? After all that's what this whole thread was about.
I am also not sure what you contributed by taking the time to take a pointless jab instead of answering the thing you obviously totally ignored:

Does it matter if Medica II is up a second before or after an AoE? Does it matter if SS or Succor is up a second before or after an AoE? This is pretty much the point I am trying to make. I never said that WHM does NOT need to know the fight at all. I am still claiming that the SCHs main tools totally lose their merit if the SCH doesn't know the fight while the WHM can still catch up.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Does it matter if Medica II is up a second before or after an AoE? Does it matter if SS or Succor is up a second before or after an AoE? This is pretty much the point I am trying to make. I never said that WHM does NOT need to know the fight at all. I am still claiming that the SCHs main tools totally lose their merit if the SCH doesn't know the fight while the WHM can still catch up.

Well since you reignited the discussion about your statements:

Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I was trying to say is that it's harder for a SCH to go into an unknown fight

That single opening line implies your original message, as well as this message, that scholars have it harder than white mages for unknown content. According to you anyway.

And yes, it actually does matter for Medica II being up before or after an AoE and a Succor before or after an AoE. It has already been established that White Mages are more prone to MP issues than Scholars, thus it leads to the following:
Medica II being casted before damage taken is pure waste: 200 potency on 8 players and any potential pets (minor factor, but pets do die from AoE too). The healing effect after application has a total potency of 500 for each target hit. For every 3 seconds it doesn't heal, because the AoE has not occurred yet, is another 50 potency wasted on each target Medica II applied to. Once AoE happens, another AoE healing is required. The remaining Medica II ticks (maximum of 500 potency total) will not top anyone off. This will lead to an MP waste of 372 or 452, depending on which AoE healing would have been obsolete. Either way: It's a gigantic waste of MP.
Succor, on the other hand, is rarely a waste. Even applied before AoE, 150 potency worth of healing goes to waste, but 150 potency (450 on a crit) worth of shielding is ready for the AoE then. If it's applied after an AoE, it depends on the content, but the healing is not wasted in this case and the shield may or may not be wasted. In FCOB content, post-AoE succors are rarely a waste. Only exception would be FCOB Turn 2 on certain phases, I guess. For casual or "casual made" content, it's not even necessary to apply a succor before or after an AoE any more.

And yes, it also matters whether Stoneskin is up before or after an AoE. Applying stoneskin on everyone before an AoE is rarely possible. It takes 20-25s (depending on spell speed) to apply stoneskin on all 8 party members. 16-18s if you decide to ignore the tanks. That's a rather large window and it'll either:
1) Knock off or soften up the stoneskin before AoE happened on those who you cast it on first
2) All healing will be thrown into the Scholar's lap because you (the white mage) is too busy casting stoneskins left and right

If you also throw in the "unknown" factor you seem to like so much, this will create a third issue:
3) Without knowledge of the encounter, stoneskinning entire parties for AoE is not feasible.

In another post you mentioned Lustrate comes at a cost, both yes and no. Yes, because aetherflow stacks can be considered as MP as Energy Drain equals to 266 MP. No, because Aetherflow itself has no cost in the first place. It's an alternative resource that white mage has no access to. In your last post, you mentioned scholars "lose their main tools to totally lose their merit". Even if not knowing the fight, scholars can perfectly get away with doing their usual routine as offDPSing, if that's what you're talking about. Why? Lustrate, that's why. Ran out of stacks? Then stay out of cleric's still the stacks are back up. Knowing the fight has nothing to do with this, it's all about personal ability to make decisions whether you can be in Cleric's Stance or focus on healing. Oh, white mages can catch up? Since you're so fond about the "unknown fight" concept, white mages being late on healing will result to dead tanks, which will very likely lead to wipes. Of course, unless the other healer manages to patch things up. Hello Lustrate!

There's also another issue about "going into unknown fights". How often does this actually happen? With exception of a handful of players who charge in guns blazing the moment new endgame content is released, everyone else will most likely make use of guides or observations made from other people streaming. Meaning: There's always a source for information floating around the internet for you to use. A fight isn't "unknown" for long either, even without any external sources or explained to you by fellow raid members. "Lack of experience", however, is a whole different story.

[Sebazy]

Poor Eos collects dust 95% of the time at end-game, only let out of her cage once in a while.

Eos has her place, I can pull 150dps + 1000hps on phase 1 of turn 13 using her.

Medica II being casted before damage taken is pure waste: 200 potency on 8 players and any potential pets (minor factor, but pets do die from AoE too). The healing effect after application has a total potency of 500 for each target hit.

Again, never discount something. I intentionally precast medica II before megaflare on phase 2 as whm as I can free up an additional GCD for a cure either on the MT or someone that might still be low from orbs or whatnot. The initial efficiency loss is made up by typically not needing a cure III for rage.

Anyway, noone here has convinced me that White Mage is fine.

And I suspect it'd take a shotgun to persuade you any different at this point, you are clearly blind to WHM's strengths, therefore it's pretty pointless trying to debate the issue with you.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Again, never discount something. I intentionally precast medica II before megaflare on phase 2 as whm as I can free up an additional GCD for a cure either on the MT or someone that might still be low from orbs or whatnot. The initial efficiency loss is made up by typically not needing a cure III for rage.

Before I go into this, I assume you're referring to FCOB Turn 4 (Turn 13). Could you specify the exact timing? When you mention "Before mega flare", I'm understanding that as either: After Rage or right before Mega flare.