Positionals: Ninja and Monk - Food for thought.

[Sensu]

Why are you saying MNKs will get to a poor minimum without positionals? An equally skilled/geared NIN will always get outdps'd by a MNK, while when MNK is ignoring there positionals (to a certain level) they're just below what a NIN can do, unless they run out of TP. Just did a T9 with both NIN and MNK, in the same party and NIN = utilities; trick attack and Goad is what makes them incredibly useful and especially for a MNK, MNK outdps'd the NIN by miles. Not even worth trying to catch up.

[Maleha]

As a healer I'm actually worried a bit about the freedom NINs have because more than once I've seen lolnins in roulette (especially expert) who jump around, dps from the FRONT and eat cleaves of bosses, which I then have to heal. Why not give at least a partial flank or back requirement to Nins so they do actually stay in the safe zone? -.- I get that good NINs probably don't do this but since I start seeing this more and more it's pissing me off.

[kyuven]

There's a bit of simple logic to it. We always traditionally believe a knife in the back is more deadly than a knife in the front...but I'd like to point out that our important bits back there are covered solid bone while our important bits in the front are only protected by our squishy squishy flesh. In reality it doesn't matter where the knife lands on your body...if it finds purchase, you're injured by it. Remember sneak attack only works from the front, implying it's used to stab in the stomach, heart, eye, etc.
Blunt force trauma is a slightly different animal, though. Stopping a blade with your bare hand will still get you cut, stopping a fist will get you a bruise. There are more options in the front of your body to avoid getting hit by or mitigating damage from a fist than there are a blade.Also make note of how many martial arts moves involve turning your opponent around to get their back to you. Even Bruce Lee's fight scenes emphasized this. In choreographed fights, it's actually important to have the "fighters" facing each other so the one "selling" the attack can see and react. In the real world, if you can get their back to you, it's favorable because they can't move their arms or legs and can't see you.
In short, a ninja isn't dependent on positionals for basically the same reason the Paladin, Bard, and Warrior aren't.
I still can't explain Dragoons, though. They really shouldn't be as reliant on positionals as they are. Especially since the spear is specifically designed to be used in frontal assaults.

[Genesis-xyx]

Was just talking about this a few days ago. Completely agree!

[Izsha]

I get what you mean from a flavor perspective, but as has been stated, from a gameplay perspective it really balances out. Nin has a lot more to keep track of during a fight to maintain optimal dps than a mnk, so they cut back on positionals. SE just decided that gameplay trumps flavor, and that is just fine by me.

[ReplicaX]

As a healer I'm actually worried a bit about the freedom NINs have because more than once I've seen lolnins in roulette (especially expert) who jump around, dps from the FRONT and eat cleaves of bosses, which I then have to heal. Why not give at least a partial flank or back requirement to Nins so they do actually stay in the safe zone? -.- I get that good NINs probably don't do this but since I start seeing this more and more it's pissing me off.

Goes for any Melee DPS regardless of having Positionals or not. Freedom of movement has nothing to do with stupidity.

[kyuven]

Freedom of movement has nothing to do with stupidity.

I would like to frame this statement and put it on my wall.

[Lexia]

Goes for any Melee DPS regardless of having Positionals or not. Freedom of movement has nothing to do with stupidity.

I agree

....

[Airget]

"Positionals" for NIN comes down to it's mudras, MNK has a straightforward combo system with options on it's way before starting back from the start. Yes they gain more potency by directional attacks however they don't have a "mudra" concept to think of while moving from position to position for the most part their actions are straightforward.

When it comes to NIN they had to use mudra which is their "positional" movement it's just done in a different manner, they combo mudras based on the situation, Raiton for dmg, Suiton for Trick or sneak attack, Kaiton for AOE and Hyoton for increased att speed. The idea for them is to pause what they are doing and react to using the ninjutsu every 20 seconds which in itself can get rather complex since even when a jutsu is up when it comes to trash mobs it comes down to, is it worth using jutsu now, maybe I should just reapply hyoton, will I deal more dmg holding off and using doton on next set of mobs, a boss is coming up maybe I"ll just reapply Hyoton and wait.

With MNK however they have a one button "easy mode" you can say to gaining their greased lightning before a boss fight mainly that's the only time they would really need to execute the speed of starting out with max potency and then they can upkeep it as long as they are continuing the combo.

With NIN however they have to pause midway through their train of thought to reapply and even when they reapply it they have to consider is it worth to put up near the current progression of the fight or is there a better use for their jutsu.

So just because NIN don't move around a lot doesn't mean they don't have that same "movement" complexity as a MNK it's just focused on combos and currently the biggest difficulty with the NIN"s form of positional attacks is lag input which can cause mispresses in mudras.

[RazeLandale]

If thief were a initial class it'd play like monk. But monk's already taken that gimmick and if you gave it to thf/nin it'd be a rehash. So, nin gets mudras instead, which I think are a pretty good mechanic. When I cast a spell on ninja it feels like I'm actively casting a spell. Moreso then the devoted casters who're just sitting there while a bar fills up.