DRK being compared to past FF games.

[BlaiseArath]

well as I cycle through the "Dark Knight" abilities in all final fantasy games... outside of Provoke and Drain/Aspir, I can't turn any of them into decent tanking skills. So I still question rather it will be Dark Knight in anything but Black armor and name.

[Mirron]

That's because Final Fantasy really doesn't have tank skills. Provoke and Cover are pretty much the only two that are recurring enough and actually feel like something a tank would use. But there are still ways to turn a Dark Knight into a tank and have it feel like a Dark Knight. Warrior still feels like a Warrior, when all it's ever had for "tank" is Provoke. I don't see why Dark Knight would be any different.

[BlaiseArath]

That's because Final Fantasy really doesn't have tank skills. Provoke and Cover are pretty much the only two that are recurring enough and actually feel like something a tank would use. But there are still ways to turn a Dark Knight into a tank and have it feel like a Dark Knight. Warrior still feels like a Warrior, when all it's ever had for "tank" is Provoke. I don't see why Dark Knight would be any different.

I agree there are no real "Tanking" skills in offline FF, but there are clearly healing and DD skills, and attribute spreads to support certain roles... and DRK has a buttload of DD skills that would be significantly counter intuitive to a tanking class if it drew inspiration from other FF titles... Thats mostly what I was meaning to say, which... again is only that if you look at DRKs repertoire you'll see it has a lot of abilities and traits designed around hurting itself to hurt others, its just going to be hard to repurpose those abilities into a job that feels like DRK but it designed to tank, not die less fast than the enemy. I can envision how DRK will play out (probably having Drain/Aspir type attacks, maybe a few DoTs... perhaps Darkness/Souleater in a way that consumes ~10% of your HP to deal moderate AoE damage and increase enmity, an off GCD like Circle of Scorn). I feel like they'll be able to do it... its just going to be awkward and out of place for a lot of players at first. I'm sure people will adapt though.

I guess I get WAR feeling like WAR because in a lot of FF titles, WAR did have high HP and DEF, and in its original appearance turned into Knight, the closest thing to a tank any offline game sees. Plus in XI it was the original tank and I played a lot of XI lol. But still I see the point there, WAR has always been a master of combat, not so much a tank, its even kinda the same in XI, being able to wield almost every weapon with some proficiency (though its best weapon was Great Axe/Axe).

[Zumi]

I agree there are no real "Tanking" skills in offline FF, but there are clearly healing and DD skills, and DRK has a buttload of DD skills that would be significantly counter intuitive to a tanking class. Thats mostly what I was meaning to say, which... again is only that if you look at DRKs repertoire you'll see it has a lot of abilities and traits designed around hurting itself to hurt others, its just going to be hard to repurpose those abilities into a job that feels like DRK but it designed to tank, not die less fast than the enemy.

Offline FF games don't have tanking classes usually so they have to convert something to a tank class. What classic FF job would you rather see as a tank?

[Mirron]

But that's the thing again, skills really don't work like that in offline games. Sentinel is arguably the only thing FF has done that feels like a legitimate tank thing, and XIII is very odd in how it approached it's "jobs". Most of the plausible "tanks" for this game are going to be focused on primarily dealing damage. It's just how offline FF's work. Even Paladin's have been heavy damage dealing classes at times, that doesn't mean they don't make sense as tanks.

You run into a similar issue with healers really. Most jobs aren't focused on healing excessively. They may have one or two healing spells, but White Mage is pretty much the bulk of any regenerative ability in most games. Similar to tanks, you're going to need to stretch a bit to find jobs that work without being too much of a strain on how they are. It's why I expect Chemist as a healer, because it's a plausible healing job that can be unique.

At the end of the day, most jobs in FF just have a ton of different ways to really hurt the enemy. Some jobs have more support/healing/tanking, but for most it's just another variant on how they die. To fit as a tank or healer, they'll need to take the jobs that have viable qualities along those lines and then try and help them fit in.

[BlaiseArath]

Offline FF games don't have tanking classes usually so they have to convert something to a tank class. What classic FF job would you rather see as a tank?

There are few plausible choices I agree, Paladin/Knight is the only semi-true tanking class. I would like you, in the effort of fairness, explain how a job that is designed around cutting % into its own HP would make an effect tank? I'd argue Samurai, Rune/Mystic Knight, and even DRG make more sense as a tank than a job that has in nearly every iteration sacrificed its own HP for damage.

Seriously, how plausible is a tank that kills itself? And if they remove the HP consuming abilities of DRK, how much of a DRK is it really since thats pretty much the signature of the job in every game post FF4? I'm not saying they can't make it work but there are significantly better choices. Samurai being the big one.

You may have it in your head that I'm implying DRK cannot be repurposed as a tank... Its not what Im trying to say (though I may be speaking poorly), I'm saying that with its past uses and abilities, it makes an unusual choice for a tanking class.

[Krr]

Shrug. I'll concede the XI point. Still, a class's lore doesn't have to be as a 'protector' to be a tank. It's shown that Marauders and Warriors are 'tanks' but they don't really protect anyone as part of what their do in combat so much as getting mad and hitting things hard enough that they have to be paid some attention. Hell, when you become a Marauder the game asks you, "Are you prepared for bloodshed?" Basically, an "offensive fighter" can definitely be a tank in XIV.

And again, series history where at least half of the time or greater, Dark Knights' signature ability to 'sacrifice HP for massive damage' wasn't really that massive except due to bugs or glitches in how that damage was calculated (X-2), and in other cases, it wasn't even present until remakes (Tactics, and the Ogre series which FF owes a lot to.) There's nothing saying that same concept of powerful sacrifice still can't be in the game; we even have a signature tank skill (Berserk) that comes with a potentially very, very dangerous drawback (Pacify). The same can be done with a cooldown that sacrifices HP.

I mean crap, if I told you that "Warriors are the signature berserker-fighters of Final Fantasy in XIV" would you honestly think a class that lost control of its abilities would even be viable in XIV, much less an MMORPG at all?

I doubt Dark Knights are going to be 'protecting' anything other than their own hides in this game, both thematically or mechanically. They'll be good at drawing hate for plenty of other reasons, though.

[Mirron]

Yes, but if you look at it from a mechanical point of view, it's even worse for DPS to be cutting HP for damage. Imagine two different Dark Knights on a team (four for eight in larger parties) all cutting their health to do whatever it is that they're doing. It'd be horrible. Either they'd become the new main for damage dealers because the HP loss is worth it, or it wouldn't be worth the strain it places on healers and they'd be left out in the cold.

The other option (long cooldowns) allows for pretty effective things without it being a big problem, and works fine on the tank as well. They just need to not be stupid about it. Whatever role they're in, chances are they'd only be able to use it sparingly either way, so it's fine on a tank. Might be enough to just toss a regen and it'll be handled.

[BlaiseArath]

For fairness, I can think of three jobs that would be more logically re purposed as tanks than DRK.

Red Mage: A fencer mage with a shield. Tank with the ability to use spells that reduce damage taken(Phalanx/Reflect?), Use black magic to cripple foes (damage mitigation, slow, paralyze). It would obviously lose the ability to steadily cure itself, as that would not follow the Trinity. Could have an ability/spell that increases Shield block rate (like Palisade), could have the ability to double cast/Instant cast for these spells. Spells could work on RDM similar to how flash works on PLD, so instead of having off GCD cooldowns for DEF/Shield block, they have spell based ones as well. balanced so as to not be overpowered, rather by high MP cost or slightly less effectiveness/uptime.
Base Class; Fencer. Draws from MRD, WHM, BLM.

Rune Knight/Mystic Knight: employs a Rune system that effects are based on the rune combo entered (think like Mudras). Maybe having access to 3/4 runes, combos entered could reduce Elemental Damage, or Physical, increase your own DEF, increase parties DEF, so forth. Runes could be difficult for new tanks to understand.
Base Class: Fencer.

Samurai: Parry/Counter. Abilities like Third Eye, which could increase DEF by 20% for 15 seconds. Stances could borrow from XI, having Hasso/Seigan be the "Sword/Shield Oath" of Samurai. Hasso increasing Attack power in some way, while Seigan could increase parry rate and enmity generation, and granting a chance to counter when third eye is active. Have the ability to counter on parry that reduces the damage by 50% instead of the normal 23~25% and deals damage back with a potency of (50?) and increases enmity. Sam could make a good tank.

... While some may argue these jobs wouldn't necessarily fit into tanking roles... well neither does DRK, but none of these jobs are known for hurting themselves for extra power, so I'd submit they'd make more sense as a tank than DRK. In fact if i recall, SAM was going to be introduced as a tank but apparently SE didnt want to release too many eastern jobs at the same time?

Yes, but if you look at it from a mechanical point of view, it's even worse for DPS to be cutting HP for damage. Imagine two different Dark Knights on a team (four for eight in larger parties) all cutting their health to do whatever it is that they're doing. It'd be horrible. Either they'd become the new main for damage dealers because the HP loss is worth it, or it wouldn't be worth the strain it places on healers and they'd be left out in the cold.

The other option (long cooldowns) allows for pretty effective things without it being a big problem, and works fine on the tank as well. They just need to not be stupid about it. Whatever role they're in, chances are they'd only be able to use it sparingly either way, so it's fine on a tank. Might be enough to just toss a regen and it'll be handled.

Well we do have "Blood for Blood" :P, which is almost as bad.

[Ultimatecalibur]

I agree there are no real "Tanking" skills in offline FF, but there are clearly healing and DD skills, and DRK has a buttload of DD skills that would be significantly counter intuitive to a tanking class. Thats mostly what I was meaning to say, which... again is only that if you look at DRKs repertoire you'll see it has a lot of abilities and traits designed around hurting itself to hurt others, its just going to be hard to repurpose those abilities into a job that feels like DRK but it designed to tank, not die less fast than the enemy.

No, it has 1 regularly reoccurring ability, Darkness/Darkside/Souleater, that does so, not a buttload.