DRK being compared to past FF games.

[Mirron]

The issue falls apart with the simple fact that Warrior is barely if at all in any real way portrayed with "tank" qualities, yet here it is in XIV as a tank. There are only a couple of skills that really qualify as "tank" skills, at least ones that really do that kind of thing. Healers and casters are more of a thing, but mostly it was slow but sturdy melees and quick but weaker melees as the other categories. The best you tend to get is just a really sturdy character with maybe some skills that help either draw enemy attacks or protect the party, but they usually have more to do than that.

Further, while Dark Knights work as a damage dealer, there are a ton of jobs that make sense as that. You could justify almost any job in Final Fantasy as one and it wouldn't be odd. Tanks and healers are a lot harder to do, but Dark Knight still has tank-like qualities, at least as much as Warrior does. XI is the only real oddball, but Dark Knights in other games are very sturdy. Having an attack that sacrifices HP for damage might seem odd on a tank, but it'd be worse on a damage dealer, so I'm not really sure what the solution would be there. If it was, you'd have Dark Knights killing themselves from the enmity they pull from the increased damage they're dealing. And if they aren't doing enough damage for that to be a viable concern, then it's probably not worth the HP loss to begin with. At least on a tank you're going to be healing them consistently anyways.

Finally, not at the last post but earlier, while Gafgarion's English title may have changed, his Japanese title remained the same between versions. He's still a Dark Knight, and was clearly intended to be, much like how the Holy Knight is effectively a Paladin, just different takes on the same concept.

[BlaiseArath]

Well WAR has more in common with a tank than DRK has, but I do see your point since If i had to place WAR in a category, it'd be a proficient melee expert... Still, Warrior has always been one of the sturdiest of the job classes in the early final fantasy series, it even became "Knight" in Final Fantasy 1, and Knight is as close to a "tank" as those games get. But it does feel more of a berserker type class than a tank, because yah as I explained, the trinity didn't "truly" exist in the original Final Fantasy titles (though there were clearly healers...). Warrior was always to me the job that was proficient in almost every weapon type (which is actually removed in XIV due to "1 weapon 1 job").

I admit it makes little sense in XIV to have a DD job that actively hurts itself to deal damage, since the idea of hurting itself to deal damage in past FF titles was that it would deal way more damage than other classes could, but at the risk of dying... in FFXIV where "Job Balance" is paramount, introducing a job that could blow other DDs out of the water so long as it was healed properly would make it either the best job ever or the worst... which would be very difficult to balance.

I'd like to hope as a Tanking class in XIV, DRKs will at least retain some utility abilities like "Drain" and maybe a little Dark Magic similar to how Ninjutsu was in play, as well as maybe take a page from XI and give them stuff like "Endark" or "Absorb-" attribute abilities. Maybe not so complex, but I imagine DRK will have "DRK" themes, but I don't believe it will live up to the expectations people have of it as it appears in previous titles, as I believe it will be nearly impossible for SE to allow DRK, a tanking class, to have access to Black Magic and damage enhancing abilities that sacrifice HP. I mean, it >could< work, but it wouldn't be a good tank...

Also, as far as sacrificing HP for extra damage, I mean XI isn't the pinnacle of MMOs but it did work there, but I agree I don't see it working in XIV for the reasons I named above... and once more with feeling... I'm okay with it being a Tank job, more okay than most... I'm simply on the side that understands while DRK may never have been assigned a Trinity label, in past games it was usually a class that could deal way more damage than other classes at the sake of its own survival, and in that light, it feels way more like a DD, than a Tank.

[Tanathya]

FFXI - Dark Knight is a job that has a multitude of attacks that make it deal more damage in exchange for HP or becoming more vulnerable to damage. Interestingly, they also have multiple attacks that generate considerable bonus aggro when used, and one of their abilities even gives them as much hate as Provoke! They also wear heavy armor and have decent HP; however, the community (not the designers) adopts them in the metagame as melee damage dealers.

Also, the biggest HP pool was MNK's, by far (which is, alongside Counter, the most famous trait to MNKs in almost every single FF, mind you), and you never invited MNKs as a tank, not until Abyssea.

Let's be reasonable here, there are plenty of jobs with defensive skills that could've worked great in here, and by the description given to FFXIV's DRK, that sounds more akin to a Rune Fencer/Knight, with all the magical defense theme.

[BlaiseArath]

Hey, stop that, logic is bad.

Funnily, that set gives them like, +50% Damage taken lol, its pretty hilarious.

[Mirron]

Dark Knights in XI are the exception though, not the rule. In other FF's they usually have pretty good defensive stats still. Solid gear from just being a heavy armor class in general really helps. And given we don't even know how Dark Knights will function, it's far too early to say that they could have just been some other class. It also doesn't mean Dark Knight doesn't work as a tank. The whole damaging yourself bit again makes it a horrible idea for DPS. It's not good on a tank, but on the damage classes? I already have some people peel off enemies on the tank, and if the Dark Knights are doing that on top of sacrificing HP, it'll be brutal.

[BlaiseArath]

I did mention (or maybe I edited it out) that "Dark Knight" is essentially the opposite of PLD, but both are Knights. PLD is the "White Knight" type(hehe), Dark Knight is of course, the Dark Knight type. Both are capable of wearing Knight armor since they are both, in the Final Fantasy universe, Knights (even more prominently metaphorically shown in Cecil, and his change between the two)... but PLD is specialized more in Healing, protecting, and defending, where as Dark Knight was more specialized offensively with black magic. They are two sides of the same coin to put it simply.

Of course, I'm not saying DRK cannot be adapted to a tanking class as it has the fundamentals, but you'd have to be sticking your head into the sand to not see that PLD and DRK are oppositional forces, PLD the protector, and DRK the destroyer. PLD wielding white magic to heal, Dark Knights wielding black magic to destroy. While not necessarily needing to be put into a trinity system, its clear one is a defender, and one is an attacker, regardless of their armor choices, its the weapons they wield and the abilities they have that define them.

Not that I entirely disagree with you Mirron, we're just interpreting the same facts differently.

[Zumi]

If you remember paladin and dark knight in Final Fantasy Tactics they pretty much did the same thing they had the ability to one shot several units with one move however a dark knight was more focused on using Night Sword to regain all their HP as they killed someone. Its just that many a FF games do not have roles like tanks and every class deals damage or heals or both.

[BlaiseArath]

If you remember paladin and dark knight in Final Fantasy Tactics they pretty much did the same thing they had the ability to one shot several units with one move however a dark knight was more focused on using Night Sword to regain all their HP as they killed someone. Its just that many a FF games do not have roles like tanks and every class deals damage or heals or both.

Yes, in Tactics Fell Knight (Dark Knight) had the ability to Absorb both HP and MP, absorbing enemy attributes is another thing added to DRK... in XI they had Drain/Aspir II, Absorb-STR/DEX/etc/etc, Blood Weapon which absorbed HP equal to the damage dealt (taken inspiration from Tactics it seems too!).

HOWEVER! In the later version of Final Fantasy Tactics:

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Knight_(Tactics)

Dark adapted the more offensive style its known for today, and the HP expending abilities, as well as abilities like this

Increase attack power by 50 percent and decrease defensive power by 50 percent.

This "Attack+" and "DEF-" ability is actually present in a good portion of Dark Knights incarnations as well, though the most prominent feature of Dark Knights is "Sacrificing HP to deal massive damage", which is a trait almost every single incarnation of Dark Knight possesses. However just digging through Wiki its clear Dark Knight became adapted as this "Sacrifice" damage dealer in its later incarnations, and not always in the earlier ones.

[Mirron]

It's not that scarce. It's main ability is referenced in a lot of games as well.

And I do agree we are seeing the same facts differently, I just don't see much wrong with Dark Knights as tanks. They've even had Provoke, which really does nothing at all as a damage dealer, but is one of the few tank skills that really work like a tank in Final Fantasy.

[Kuwagami]

If you guys are going to try to reference one game, you probably should use its most recent version.

why should we ? Remakes of the games added stuff that didn't exist previously considering the games sold in between. That doesn't mean the new version is more "authentic" or "valuable" than the old one.